Further Maths GCSE query

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Would someone be able to clarify for me confusion over Further Maths GCSE and Higher Maths GCSE. I have searched the boards and believe i have understood this correctly, but for the sake of clarification…. Further Maths is an additional paper to, not instead of, the Higher Maths paper. So you would sit both papers at exam time. It is an additional GCSE - is this understanding correct?

My sons did further maths GCSE. It is a separate exam and separate papers. Seemed like an easy one (if you like and are good at maths) as they just had a few extra lessons in Yr 11 before taking it.

Thanks @DownToTheSeaAgain . Unfortunately dd has missed 8 months of schools due to anorexia, she is starting again full
time. Her school finished higher maths content in y10 and further maths in y11. She thinks she has to do it. I would rather her move down a set and focus on the higher paper and also have the teacher she likes the most. Her school focuses on the further maths content for a year. How much time did your son have to study the content (roughly!)?

Dd thinks she doesn’t do the higher just Further.

It felt like they only had a few lessons but were already in top stream for maths so it wasn't hard for them. A level further maths is another matter!

If she has missed that much school, I would think it a no-brainer to drop a set to focus on the maths GCSE and getting a good grade, rather than trying to do FM as well. She'll have her work cut out catching up on other subjects as it is.

Yes, it is a no brainier for me also, but unfortunately anorexia has played havoc with her brain and she is stuck on being very high achieving and getting all 9s 😪her schools is very pushy and she was in all the top sets. If she dropped a few subjects she could get 7, 8, 9s to get into her sixth form - it is a very sad situation.

I am hoping to convince her to drop down to the top set (she was in top top set) and perhaps Further Maths could be an option on her own by December (if she actually managed to return to school).

She had been getting limited medical tuition in the last three-ish months but only three hours per week. She did however sit her short course RE in July studying at home via Oak National Academy. Hopefully some sort of catch up is possible.

DD2 did Further Maths GCSE – they took maths in Y10 then Further Maths in Y11. She didn't find it particularly difficult but although she isn't a natural mathematician she did have an exceptional teacher.

I think your instincts are correct, and you should carry on trying to convince your daughter to concentrate on getting the best possible grade in maths.

Getting a good grade in maths is essential. Getting Further Maths GCSE is a waste of time in your DD'S situation. I'm surprised the school is dedicating year 11 to it. Encourage your DD to take FM at A level if she continues to enjoy maths.

My DD achieved a 9 for maths. She studied FM in a weekly hour long session after school in year 11. She lost interest during her exams and didn't pass. She had to declare her grade on her UCAS form, but it didn't prevent her gaining a place at Oxford to study a degree with a high level of maths content.

I have a DD at the opposite academic end who also suffers from MH issues.

My gut feel is you and school may need to take control and make the decisions.
Eg she is dropping a maths set. She is dropping from separate sciences to combined, and she is dropping one other.

No one will care if she has 10 or 8 gcses, but you don't want to impact recovery by overloading. (Especially when the actual exams roll around).

Otoh you know your DD best and maybe she needs more agency.

Dd is also autistic, so she can be rigid about her ideas. I am trying to get her to drop an option, do combined science and take a set down in maths.

she won’t listen to me on science (and it is the hardest subject to catch up on for her as Dh and I are no help in that area). So I am trying to get her to see sense in dropping a set for maths and securing a good score for maths. As she was highest set, she was already a bit ahead of the curriculum, so her gaps should be not so wide.

Coming up with alternatives like this was part of my job before I left last month to help support her. It’s frustrating that she can’t see she could end up at the same sixth form taking a lesser number of GCSEs. I guess I can only just go slowly. I could get school to also suggest it, but I would rather her come to the conclusion of her own volition so that she is happy with it. It has been a very very shitty two years for us all. My ultimate would be to repeat a year, but she would then be in her sister’s class.

Oh I do feel for you, I can see how the autism will complicate things.

The CGP revision guides are good for science, and all the experiments are available as youtube videos.

I hope between you all you can nurse her through without a relapse.

If DD is medically well enough for more than 3 hours medical needs tuition per week the LA should be providing more.

In addition to medical needs tuition have you considered applying for an EHCNA?

I would sell the moving down a set as having her favourite teacher. You don't really need Further Maths. It's ordinary Maths (Higher) that she would need a good grade in.
There is a misconception that combined Science is "easier" than the 3 separate sciences. That isn't true for the 9-1 courses. The separate Sciences and Combined science are the same level of difficulty, there is just less content than for separate Sciences.

There is a misconception that combined Science is "easier" than the 3 separate sciences. That isn't true for the 9-1 courses. The separate Sciences and Combined science are the same level of difficulty, there is just less content than for separate Sciences.

I agree. But only having 2/3rds the content would mean less to catch up on and less to revise. Thus freeing up time to catch up on Eng Lit, History (and/or Geography) where there could well have been major content missed. e.g. Eng Lit could have completely missed out one of the set texts.

My guess is the DD was due to do 10 or maybe even 11 GCSEs? Somehow she needs to be persuaded that 8 or 9 good grades and good mental health is better than 10 or 11 at lower grades and risking a relapse in her recovery. (But the OP is clearly well aware of that.)

Thanks @TeenDivided and I am really sorry to hear that your dd is having similar struggles with her mental health. We have the CGP guides, so I am glad we are going the right way about things.

@LargeLegoHaul the medical needs tuition team were all hit by covid and it was very sporadic towards the end. It was a ‘suitable full time education’ by dd did TE short course via oak national academy and in the last month attended Spanish and history at school (so filled in the gaps for her in preparation to return).

Have done an ECHNA and LA hideously out of statutory timeframe. However, I am just friggin exhausted and have other autistic children to support.!but I need to get the IPSEA templates out and start emailing.

Really interesting about the combined course not being easier but just less content. I guess she could start triple and always drop to combined if needed? I didn’t complete my education in the U.K., so always learning something new!

And yes, the key thing here is for DD to truly recover. That involves some element of education and to socialise again and make friends. But I don’t think full time school is right and she can do less GCSEs. School have followed my lead because they are being lazy, but they are having her back and she does have risky behaviours, so I guess we can make the best of it.

Really appreciate the help. Individually some teachers have been stand out amazing, but others much less so and I have been left trying to work out what is best for dd.

What are her likely plans for sixth form?

If she intends to do maths (and even further maths), and will be continuing at a school where most students have done the further maths GCSE, there's an argument for continuing in the top set. However if she's dropping maths, or will be going to a sixth form where not everyone has had the opportunity to do further maths, you're right that she doesn't need it.

However even in the latter case, be guided by her maths teachers, and perhaps see how this term goes. If she's really good at maths, she may catch up easily. (DD did no maths during the first lockdown for mental health reasons, and it did her no harm). Some of the further maths material will revise/consolidate the GCSE stuff.

With science, is the set-up that the top set do triple in the same time as the others do combined, or do they have additional timetable time for triple? If the former, there's no time gained within the timetable by dropping down, so it's only the revision time.

I think there's much to be said for seeing how things go next term, and deciding later. If it gets to mocks and one option is looking much weaker, that would be the time to drop that to concentrate on others. (Something to check out is whether the mocks are on everything covered so far. For instance, they may have tested the year 10 Eng Lit texts last term, and just set a paper on the new texts next term; if so, she ought to have a go at the year 10 paper as well, to measure how she's doing on those too.)

The biggest problem is going to be the "set on level 9s", and the effect on her mental health if that's not going to be possible. You may need to find ways for lower grades to be "okay". In some ways, reducing subjects to give more time means there's less "excuse" in the others, putting pressure on in a different way. Talk to the school about this too. DD's school gave her very high "minimum target grades", so that on every report she was failing to meet some of them. If your DD's school do something similar, I'd hope that they might revise some of the targets in the light of her absence.

FM is an additional subject at gcse. Higher/Foundation level applies to the core Maths gcse they all sit. There is also Additional Maths which is a freestanding qualification.

DD has been offered further maths as she's top set and predicted a 9. However, her teacher has suggested that if she isn't doing maths a level (she isn't, maths is her least favourite subject), there's little to no point doing it. She's predicted mostly 9s and a couple of 8s so I think there was an assumption that she may as well do it and I can understand the thinking. However, school recognised the pressure she's putting on herself to achieve the grades she's predicted anyway and on top of other commitments and a recently diagnosed genetic condition which is causing her some pain and distress, they used the "only do it if you're doing a level maths later" line on her and it worked.

A suitable, full time at KS4 is considered 25 hours. And, although when delivered 1:1 can be fewer hours as delivery is more concentration DD wasn’t receiving a suitable, full time education even with the extras you mention. The LA may have tried to claim it was, but there are several LGO cases that demonstrate that isn’t true. For example, in this case 12.5 hours and 15 hours 1:1 were not considered full time. And in this one 6 and 8 hours 1:1 weren’t considered enough.

If the LA’s normal medical tuition provider couldn’t deliver the provision they should have commissioned another service to provide it. If this happens again email the Director of Children’s Services threatening Judicial Review.

It is debatable whether Oak Academy learning would be counted as teaching, as work sent home by the school (except in the first 5 days of an exclusion) does not.

Send the IPSEA template to the Director of Children’s Services and threaten Judicial Review. If you don’t get a response SOSSEN can help with a pre-action letter.

Wishing your DD a good recovery and health. I do sympathise, my youngest was bed-bound for a year and so had to re-start Year 11 due to illness. Even then, she couldn’t finish her original full load of GCSEs so we strategically dropped 2 of them as she needed breaks in her schedule for rest periods during the day.

The ones we dropped depended on her A level choices. She wanted to study Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Computer Science at 6th form. So, I would look at what your DD wants to study at A levels as well. You have to keep the core ones English and Maths plus Science- either combined or triple. But everything else is up for consideration.

My DD dropped Design Technology and Geography. She kept triple science and further maths GCSE. Ended up with mostly 9s and got into her selective sixth form- who is also very good accommodating her autism and chronic illness which still affects her.

I would advise the SENCO proposing to your DD rather than having your DD realise on her own what to do. If it’s presented as this is the best roadmap to your goals and won’t affect your sixth form chances, that’s it’s just making it more fair as others don’t have an illness to fight off as well as study- perhaps she will see the logic. My DD is also autistic and felt like she was committed and couldn’t back out of a GCSE without letting everyone down, she also had a ‘fuck (illness)’ attitude, which while admirable can get in the way of recovery if it makes you too rigid to accept accommodations for it which really are there to give you a level playing field and make things fair for you. Hearing from an authority as “this is needed to make GCSEs more fair for you” is more reassuring than asking and then wondering if it’s only out of pity that you got the accommodations.

Thanks alll - really appreciate the input. It is all a bit complicated by dd not knowing what sixth form subjects she wants to do. Sets her off into a bit of a panic. I think going down a set in maths is best with an option to join FM set or study it further on her own with guidance after first term.

unfortunately, we don’t have much faith in the SENCO and my line of work, which sounds like largelegohaul, has left everyone leaving the decisions to me - kinda not what I expected! This is happening not only in education but also health and social care! But the head of maths is great and I think she might listen to him so I might try to get some time with him to see if this is a realistic plan.

@LargeLegoHaul inam progressing a complaint against the NHS as it was their inaction that worsened dd situation. Education is on the back burner as I am not quite sure how dd will react in September when the plan for her is full time. I feared school would say she could not meet need if we got to draft plan stage (there is a very identifying reason why) so it seemed beneficial to do it this way (eg RE teacher caught up with her a handful of times for a tutoring session to complement oak, there are some teachers she liked that reached out. Whereas home tuition tutors were dropping like flies and being replaced - no benefit of consistency with additional hours.

she will def want a different sixth form. Friendships are a huge concern for her with only one friend, so it may be that this is where she will struggle to return. It all feels very unknown ar this stage. Thank-you for all your good wishes.

I completely understand, health has to be the priority. When DD is able to access more you can challenge it. One thing to be aware of, the LA’s statutory duty to provide medical needs tuition only applies to compulsory school aged pupils, the only way to ensure provision post 16 is via an EHCP.

I understand it’s identifying and no need to post more, but so you are aware unless it is wholly independent the LA could, and must unless the LA can prove the very high bar for one of the exceptions, name DD’s school (if that is your preference) on an EHCP even if the school object and claim they can’t meet DD’s needs. The advantage of an EHCP is it can include other provision and therapies too, often in excess of what is otherwise typically available via the NHS.

further maths (or additional maths) is a separate qualification with a separate syllabus and separate exam papers. There are several options, not all lead to a GCSE. In order of difficulty, starting with most difficult:

Cambridge international IGCSE in Additional maths: covers factor and remainder theorems, arithmetic and geometric series, most of A level differentiation. Thus covers about the same material as AS level maths.

Edexcel IGCSE in Further pure maths: also covers factor and remainder theorems, most of A level differentiation. But less content overall.

OCR Free Standing Maths Qualification (FSMQ - level 3 certificate) : covers factor theorem only and differentiation much more restricted to powers of x. Despite being a level 3 certificate, this is probably easier than the 2 above.

Level 2 certificate in further maths (offered by AQA and WJEC). Most restricted syllabus content and easiest questions. Level 2 is equivalent to a GCSE.

All of these give an early introduction to some A level topics and can act as a springboard to A level. The cambridge IGCSE is bordering on overkill in that it covers almost all the Y12 pure maths content, and some of the Y13. (in which case, why not just do AS level?).

FWIW GCSE statistics can also do the same job of keeping able students progressing and introducing some A level ideas early. Edexcel have a reasonable course. The alternative is AQA which I didn't like so much.

Oh yes, DD2 did the Edexcel Stats GCSE, I'd forgotten that. Her school had a weird split GCSE approach so she did:
Y10: triple science, maths, PE and some sort of IT diploma
Y11: english lang, english lit, history, Spanish, further maths, statistics
She's found the Stats in particular quite useful for her degrees.

@thing47 the split approach you describe is interesting and has advantages. It means you're in a one-year cycle rather than being stuck with same subjects for 2 years. It's closer to how the US and Scottish high school systems seem to work. It means you have at most 6 subjects and around 13 papers to revise for in a given year / exam session, rather than 11 subjects / 25+ papers which is inhumane.

stats GCSE covers much the same material as stats content in single A level but focuses a bit more on practicalities : sampling methods, data collection & cleaning, questionnaire and survey design etc. This comes in useful in e.g. biology, geography and social sciences.

From what I've seen, those who do maths in Y10 then further maths and/or statistics in Y11 have been very well prepared for A level maths (particularly A level further maths, where it can be a rush to get up to the required standard if you've "only" done higher GCSE in Y11).

Thanks @LargeLegoHaul awsre of the end of compulsory ed and keen for a sixth form rather than college as I feel it is a more supportive environment for dd. College options here are not so good. Struggling a lot to have the capacity to manage all this and dd is not my only autistic child.

dd now says maths might be an option for 6th form! Not surprising as she is naturally talented at this. She is an all rounder though.

initially the school did consider going the statistics paper, covid intervened, and now they focus on further maths. Part of the reason I think dd can catch up is that I did a gcse as an adult in one year in a subject I am really not very good in and passed.

My primary focus has to be to keeping her safe and alive, but school is a big part of ‘safe’ and it can go either way. I just want to be as prepared for the education element as possible.