Appeal - preference school having a sixth form as an argument

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Hi just wondering whether the appeals experts can advise whether this is ever a point worth raising (in conjunction with other things).

I know we’ll only be offered schools without a sixth form and know my son will want to do A-Levels (full marks in end of year tests in year 5 etc). Obviously the counter argument is just that he’ll be able to join another sixth form or college after year 11 but is there any merit to the argument that he will benefit from being in a school where he can aspire to that, be around other students taking A-Levels in a range of subjects etc?

Other potential arguments so far include desired school offering photography clubs and photography GCSE plus German and Latin. He is doing courses in all of those in his spare time. Desired school is a specialist music college and he’s just started learning an instrument so I’m thinking chance to play in an ensemble which the other school may not have (further research needed) as an argument too. Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks

I don’t think the existence of a sixth form will have much weight OP, as every school should be able to have pupils that continue on to A levels, this isn’t something special about the school you want and there’s nothing to say that school will particularly have more pupils that aspire to continue to a levels than a school without an attached sixth form.

The other things you mention will carry more weight, how long has he been doing them for?

There are some amazing appeals experts on these boards so if they disagree with that I say then definitely go with their answers more than mine

Not appeals related but something that did jump out at me from your post - a hell of a lot changes between year 5 and 11, you may find A levels turn out not to be the best option for your child for a number of reasons, so please be aware of what sort of academic pressures you are passing on even without meaning to.

I agree

The sixth form argument really doesn't have any weight at all, as so much can change between then and now - he might not want to do a levels, they might close the 6th form, he might want a change of scene for 6th (common), they might not offer subjects he wants so he needs to move, etc.

You are also in danger of suggesting that a school without a 6th form will have lower ambitions for its children, which is very risky - you never know where the panellist children might be/have gone (It won't be this school, but they may have gone to a similar one).

Your later points will bear more weight - the subjects it offers that suit him specifically for example, and the music opportunities if they are there, are much more around what the panel would expect to see (I sit on admissions panels).

No I wouldn't use the 6th form argument. The rest of it yes.

Agree with others. The sixth form argument won't carry any weight. Your other points are much better.

Is it in catchment or out of? Do you have catchment schools with places? Are they at PAN? What are their finances like?

I successfully appealed a Y10 and Y7 place yesterday. Because it’s our only catchment school, we are rural, because they were at PAN but not over and all the paperwork they sent me listed reasons why they refuse to go over PAN for out of catchment applications, but no reasons to refuse for in catchment. And we had to relocate through no fault of our own, hence the late application for Y7 and in year transfer.

Thank you, sounds like that’s a potential argument to stay clear of.

My son is in year 5 and we will apply this autumn for an oversubscribed school for 2023 entry. We have been trying to move closer for 6 months but having a nightmare on the housing market, I don’t think it’s going to happen. We have a chance of getting in on distance but wouldn’t have done so in the last two years, we are 0.2 miles too far away.

I’m therefore just starting to think about potential arguments for appeal (very far in advance!) if it comes to that as will need to gather evidence over the next year.

He has been doing the languages since lockdown, he’s just getting into the photography and music now.

Name change?

Pupils at schools without sixth forms often have priority for places at standalone sixth form colleges, which have specialist facilities and staff to teach a wide range of subjects.

If they’re at PAN and you’re out of catchment, an appeal won’t work I’m afraid. They have to go over PAN for EHCPs, managed moves, in year in catchment transfers, but not for out of catchment.

Why do people post rubbish like this?

They have to go over PANs for successful appeals. Whether the OP is in or out of catchment has no relevance for appeal. What matters is whether she can show that the disadvantage to her son from not being admitted outweighs any problems the school will face from having an additional pupil. If she can, her appeal will succeed, and the school will have to admit her son.

I dunno about the music argument if he's only just started learning an instrument unless he picked it up and immediately started playing like Yehudi Menuin.

Sorry have several usernames.

EHCPs come top priority in admissions criteria with looked after children, then siblings, then any other applicant by distance. So EHCPs will already have their places if they applied on time. There’s not a catchment area as such so any unsuccessful applicant is welcome to appeal - a couple of families got in on an appeal this year who lived further away than furthest distance offered. I don’t know what they were but they had compelling cases to make the school go over PAN.

If the school OP would be appealing for will encourage and nurture all musical talent and desire significantly, for example with lots of playing opportunities for the lower grades/orchestras for all/etc whilst the offered school offers little or nothing, then it doesn't really matter if he's a novice.

It's about showing that the detriment to him in not attending is greater than the detriment to the school of taking another pupil.

bangs head against wall

As Prh has said, this is nonsense. Assuming OP is in England or Wales (given she mentions A Levels), Appeals are completely separate to any other admissions process such as EHCPs or managed moves. Appeals for secondary are about showing the detriment to the child of not attending is greater than the detriment to the school of another pupil, using whatever grounds are relevant to a specific case - if the panel agrees this is the case, the school has to admit.

Schools don't have to go over PAN for in year catchment moves either. And many (most these days I think) schools don't actually have a fixed catchment.

As mentioned, I need to find out what musical opportunities the school we will be offered has by comparison - they say they offer it as a GCSE but I can see no one has ever sat it as a GCSE at that school.

Does the appeals panel do lots of research into what the offered school does and doesn’t offer before the hearing then? Is the panel independent of the desired school or not?

You need to check the gcse options at your preferred school. I am doubtful that the timetable allows for both Photography and Music, or even both German and Latin.

The panel won't (and aren't allowed to) do their own research. They will only know what you (and the school you are appealing for sometimes) tell them, and anything that appears in the documents from the admissions authority (so sometimes we get distances from schools that you applied for, for example) unless they have any prior knowledge just by chance.

The panel are independent of all schools involved, and the LA.

You are appealing for a school, not against one, so your appeal needs to focus on the positives of the one you want. Of course, sometimes that will require stating that the offered school does not offer something specific. You do need to avoid general arguments about the offered school not being good enough etc and focus on why the appeal school in specific.

On the off chance this is Guildford county (as it sounds exactly like it, especially with lack of other sixth forms) then the governors have stopped accepting exceptional circumstances appeals, as of last year.

You will need to sell up and rent. Sorry OP.

Is that even legal?

I’ve lived in three different council areas and all had catchments for primary and secondary.

OPs son has only just started music, is not a prodigy and can continue that at any other school.

I can’t see how she can prove he will be at a disadvantage vs other children being disadvantaged by going over PAN.

ECHPs won’t already be done at all - it’s an excruciating process that I’ve been through and they find any excuse to delay the already long process.

There are other variables - this also isn’t the first appeal I’ve done, and won.

Already people are grumbling that their appeals for this school failed - and rightly so, they have in catchment schools with places/better facilities/more money.

And each school will have different information in their appeal packs, giving their reasons for refusing.

Governors have no control over appeals.

What GCS have done this for this year onwards is removed the exceptional circumstances admissions criteria.

This is completely different and irrelevant to any appeal for the school.

No, it isn't. The governors have absolutely no say in appeals at all. MeltingSocks is confusing oversubscription categories with appeals - completely different things.

ECHPs won’t already be done at all - it’s an excruciating process that I’ve been through and they find any excuse to delay the already long process.

By the time places are allocated via the normal admissions round all existing EHCPs will have been amended for secondary transfer as they must be finalised by 15th Feb of Y6. Only new EHCPs will be finalised after that or any that are appealed/amended following mediation etc.

Not all LAs use catchment areas i.e. a fixed area that is given priority in the oversubscription criteria either.

Thanks for clarifying it’s an independent panel @PatriciaHolm Am I right to assume that whilst panels consider each case individually, success must also depend on how many other families appeal that year and the strength of their cases in comparison? There must be a limit to how many people can win an appeal in each year…are they all heard first before any decisions are made?