Yr 9 self inflicted pressure for academic achievement

[bluefineliner]

DD2 has always been a perfectionist and was keen to go to our local girls grammar school. She is able academically, and she decided where she went to school, we have always let her choose her preferences.

I hoped she would cope with the workload and maintain an average position in her class so she didn't feel she couldn't keep up. Now at the end of yr9 she is pretty much the top of all her subjects, but works very hard and puts huge effort in to being 'good' at everything. My future concern is the amount of pressure she puts on herself, with no input from us, and if this may be a problem as she goes into her GCSE years. So far, no indication of this, other than a snappy teen when things get on top of her.

Has anyone else had a child like this, and how did they get on with GCSEs and A levels? Did their commitment continue, or falter? She is naturally highly strung and can be hard work at home, but this has been the same her whole life! She is the opposite of our DD1 who was bright but chilled with it.

My DH and I continually advise her to slow down, take a rest, that it is ok to fail some things, etc etc, but it makes no difference. The school is high achieving, but she isn't being pushed to this level by them, it comes from within her. She loves school and her teachers seem to like her as a student too.

Just looking for anyone with similar experiences.

This was me as a teen. What didn't help was people telling me to slow down, fail, that it didn't matter what I got, etc etc. I was a perfectionist for me, and it did matter to me. The more I'd be told things like that, the more I'd feel that people didn't understand me, and feel isolated.

I had to discover for myself that being a perfectionist was problematic. Other people telling me that did not help. I would have prefered if people just listened, if I said I was disappointed at losing marks on something, etc - they could say, oh it's a shame you're disappointed, well done for working so hard, and then leave it at that. Not, but 97 is very good, you should be proud of that, other people would be proud of that, look on the positive side, etc etc. Those would have driven me underground with being a perfectionist, trying to pretend to be positive but secretly unhappy with it.

I did get better as I got older, and found ways of coping. I am still a perfectionist in some things, but not in a way that totally affects my self esteem, as in I don't think I'm a terrible person if I didn't get something perfect. It doesn't mean I'm not still disappointed, though, and I think that's OK - sometimes that is just how people are, and it's not something 'wrong' with them, as long as they can learn to put it in perspective.

Thank you for replying and giving me a different perspective, it is really helpful. I will keep in mind your comment on getting 97 not 100, as this is exactly the kind of things she stresses about!

I am so worried about being accused of being a pushy mother, I tend to veer away from sympathising if she is getting amazing grades, but not what she wanted. I see now that maybe a different response might help.

I feel it is a tight line between encouraging her and then being accused of putting even more pressure on her if she doesn't achieve what she wants. That is maybe partly because she is an unpredictable teen too.

I am so proud of her, but don't want to see her struggle with her own mental health or self esteem in the future if she can't meet her own high expectations. Hopefully, like you, she will find coping mechanisms as she matures.

We had one, and he just kept going (still the same, currently doing phd). He used to come home from school, have a snack then work for 3-4 hours a night, although if I remember rightly it didn't start with earnest until he was in year ten.

I used to talk to him about it regularly to try and make sure he wasn't burning himself out, but he said he felt less stressed knowing that he was on top of everything and doing as much as he possibly could, than he would if he was letting things slide.

He has never been highly strung or difficult though, so it might be that your dd is putting pressure on herself and not coping, whereas he did cope well. He got mostly A stars at gcse and all A stars at A level. At uni he got a first and won various awards. He just strives to always do his best I think, my only worry is that if he does ever fail at something he won't be able to cope!

Your post OP describes my daughter exactly. Same age and same school type and attitude.

This year shortly before a big house move (to be walking distance to school instead of an hour away in the town she'd been in since a toddler) she took a deliberate overdose. Paramedics when taking her blood pressure discovered a whole load of fresh and historic self-harm arm cutting and an eating disorder.

I was clueless that she was so miserable and distressed and think her need to be top of a school of very clever hard working kids had a good deal to do with it.

I have no advice other than be vigilant. Keep lines of communication open if you can and perhaps fill weekends with fun hair-down things which I didn't.

now adult DD... and she's now chronically mentally ill.

I wish she hadn't learned to tie her self-esteem to her grades. I tried to prevent that but failed. :(

I have a dd a bit like that. From primary school I encouraged doing stuff with a risk of failure - ballet auditions, mostly, as she tends to ace anything academic or musical. Otherwise she might have been one of those DC who goes through life getting 9s and distinctions and never meeting failure and having to learn to deal with it.

I also quite deliberately model failure and point it out - so if I muck up a new recipe I talk about how that was crap, I’ll try again with these changes. Or if I fail to get the car into a tight parking space first go, I model staying calm and trying again.

It does seem to have helped a bit. She still hates failing but is able to take a breath and move on. And is starting to see (with a bit of help) that her friends who obsess about marks in end of year exams are to some extent creating drama where there doesn’t need to be any. I fear some of them feel that parental approval and even love depends on academic success, so we make it very clear to dd that we expect her to do a sensible amount of work, and whatever flows from that is fine. But I know public exams will be the real test.

I have 3 DC. The eldest and youngest are perfectionists I am also quite like it (in some arwas of life, like never being late (not house cleaning tho!)). It wasn't until Year 8 when DS1 started with OCD that I realised quite how bad it was. Then DD also started with OCD. We had a small amount of counselling for both but DS1 never really got back 'to normal'. DD did markedly improve but she was only Yr 5.
However in lockdown DD developed anorexia trying to maintain her high standards of fitness (she is an elite sportswoman).
We did a therapy unit on Perfectionism with her CAMHS key worker which was very helpful for us. The fear of failure and self imposed v high standards can lead to really severe MH issues.
I too beat myself up repeatedly. I think I set high expectations when they were younger (not really academic ones but behaviour, respect etc altho I was always interested in the academics and sport and maybe that interest was misconstrued as pressure). But since DS1 was in year 8 (so 6 years) I stopped all that. So I still had non negotiables with behaviour etc but started asking if DD had enjoyed her sport session rather than how well it had gone etc. We developed a mantra around tests which was if they did the work and revised (sensibly) then whatever the result that was fine.
DS1 has just finished his A levels and has had severe ocd again. It has affected his performance as he zones out to stress.
Both of them have said to me at separate timed that they wish they could turn their brains off or take them out and wash them.... its heartbreakingly sad.
DS2 is also a high achiever but really laid back. That gives me some relief from the guilt in that at least a portion of it must be nature and not nature....I was always a hardworking child but never really felt this level of pressure.
It seems to be in them. Not external. If DS1 comes out of an exam saying he has failed I know he'll get 80%!
I would suggest working on her Perfectionism. See if you can find some resources on line.
And yes to being vigilant as PP said. My DD was nearly hospitalised with her ED and we hadn't noticed..... high achieving perfectionists make up.most teenage sufferers.

Nature and not nurture....sorry

I have one too.
Perfectionism goes hand in hand with anxiety.
This behaviour is quite hard wired in and is both a blessing and a burden.
DD is very aware of her mental health, she's received help for anxiety and OCD. The plus side of this is she's good at recognising the signs that things are deteriorating.
Her school are very keen on the 'growth mindset ' as this is a constructive model for learning. It allows for a degree of getting it wrong to get it right.
I think you have to talk to these kids all the time - but not try to change them. I try and help DD keep a balance between keeping busy and doing non-academic stuff and having enough down time. She needs few reminders to do school work, so I try and make sure her other needs are met.
Good observation I think that high performers are also vulnerable to ED and poor mental health.

My DS1 is also a work aholic and v bad at being idle. It's day 1 of his summer after his last A level yest and already doesn't know what to do with himself.... DH is like this too. A killer combination of work aholic dad and slightly perfectionist mum... and yes it can be a blessing to a point. But always trying to get him to take time off doesn't really work. Then he just stresses he is taking time off....

Very interesting thread. I can relate myself and it would not be helpful to share how that turned out.

A bit like anorexia I think it can be about fear and control. On the fear side, there is no substitute for having experienced failure and learning that the world doesn't end, but that second part isn't automatic and may need a lot of coaching. A perfectionist child doesn't learn anything by coming last at Sports Day and feeling humiliated in itself, but with input it can be the start of separating self from the event and learning NOT to define their value by it. You can also identify when they are catastrophising, call it out and explore it. Challenge whether things really matter so much. DD was terrified of getting a detention so we turned it into a running joke that she should try to get one as it's a key school experience. When she eventually did get one, she knew we wouldn't mind which gave her a bit of perspective.

On the control side, make sure they have enough agency in their own life outside school work, so they don't need to channel their energy into this thing that they can control. Anything from deciding what's for tea, putting a wash on if they need clean clothes (rather than because you've asked them to), being able to speak up and be listened to if they have a problem with something or want to do something (if affordable etc). Make their world bigger than jumping through hoops set up by other people. That sounds really trite but it's surprisingly hard to do with a DC who LOVES to jump through hoops in that nice, well defined, familiar arena where they often win.

We were taught there are 2 types of self esteem, one from things you do and the other just an intrinsic worth that you have just by existing. The second one is SO clear to us as their parents but so hard to convince a self-hating teen about. Children need both. I don't have the answer on this one, we just try to listen to DC a lot, ask their views, treat them with respect, give them little treats "just because".

We are definitely not getting it all right, we still have one very anxious DC and one autistic and we still have plenty of time for the wheels to fall off completely. But I think we are going in the right direction.

Just to say this was very much me at school. I hated the idea of failing or doing something wrong and I’d rather have not done something than tried and failed.
while I still have tendencies to this, I did grow out of it to a certain extent and it never reached a point where it severely affected my mental health or anything like that. I consciously push myself these days to try things out of my comfort zone that I might be crap at or might fail and I think that’s helped although it is uncomfortable for me

Thank you for all your stories and perspectives, so worrying about the poor mental health that can come with high achieving.

I have encouraged out of school activities like guides, and a drama group to try and get away from academics, but find she still pushes herself with these too. Trying to be word perfect learning lines, or step perfect in dance routines!

I am keeping a close eye on her particularly during weeks of tests (which are frequent at her school). Now we have her end of year report she seems to have relaxed a bit.

At the moment she tells me every tiny detail of school and her work, so I am aware of how she is feeling, even if I don't like it sometimes. Just worried how little control I will have over her high standards as she comes to do actual exams, and how she'll cope. Parenting teens is hard!

I was like this as a teen, especially around GCSEs and A Levels. My parents worried whether I'd enjoy university or spend all my time studying, but actually I managed a much better balance there and had a wonderful time. I'm an academic now, and still reasonably tough on myself at times, but also happily married, no MH issues, plenty of hobbies and friends. I think the really broad set of skills needed to be good at everything as a teenager is much harder than being good in your specialism later on, and that can be overwhelming.

That was me as a kid and teenager/into my twenties. I did well at school/uni and my career is progressing on track. I have a great group of friends, but I've struggled in more long term relationships, as "If you have high functioning anxiety, you've likely become adept at presenting a false persona to the world and never show your true feelings to anyone".

In my late twenties I was diagnosed with high functioning anxiety. It made me for the first time really understand myself. My family and friends have always perceived me as a type a personality/high achiever with some "quirks" (like a mini break down if I don't achieve to my standards, including once throwing out a perfectly fine cheesecake because it had a 2cm crack).

Just an experience to keep in mind - I wish I had this diagnosis in my teens and awareness that what can go on in my brain isn't actually "normal"!

Otherwise try to encourage your daughter into mindfulness/meditation and non competitive sports (like group hiking).

She sounds like she is determined and in control of her situation. If she isn't showing any kind of distress or unhappiness, surely the thing you can do as a parent is to support her and make sure she's well fed and well rested?

As I mentioned in my earlier post I have four kids only one of which has struggled with anxiety overdoing excessive revision. She has never wanted to be the best compared with other kids she just sheeted obsessed with making sure she didn't fail and making sue she did the best she could. All my other kids are more 'normal' .

My kids lives were never focused around being academic and they were all happy to try things that they weren't good at. My daughter was happy to be average at lots of things. She isn't a 'perfectionist'

I love the idea that you can prevent your child from suffering from a mental health issue by being a great parent but I honestly don't think it works like that.

I used the think I was going in the right direction but my daughters very real mental health issues thought differently.

Please don't do this. Kids, teenagers, and adults who are often suffering with their mental health create a persona to hide it from their family and friends. Especially anxiety disorders where people may actively hide it and can only be seen through certain behaviours or word choice.

Being a parent is more than simply making sure your child is well fed and rested.

Perfectionism in only one area of live is quite common. My DD was only a perfectionist in her sport. She is happy to be 'average' elsewhere. However I strongly believe she would shift hwr perfectionism elsewhere if sport stopped being her 'area' if you see what I mean.
But I totally agree about the hard wiring. It seems to be in them. Mental illness (mine have both had serious issues) is a horrible thing. If they had a physical illness I wouldn't blame myself for being a bad parent.... however I do think we can learn how to support them better

Having had 2 kids with serious mental.ill health conditions here is the biggest thing I learned. Listen to your gut. @bluefineliner if you feel concerned enough to post on here then your gut is telling you something about how you feel your daughter is coping. Act on it.

Thank you. That's really kind. I'm finding this such an interesting, educational -and sad - thread.

As a recovering perfectionist who externalised my self-worth to a set of grades, and other externally validated goals for many years, I only learnt to undo the horror of continually outsourcing my self-worth to others' yardsticks, with a lot of coaching one to one and then a lot of reading self-help books.

I discovered that perfectionism could become a form of self-hatred.

If we would only understand that today, right now, without any A stars or elite performances of any kind, you are still worthy of love, so many people would avoid this awful trap of thinking that the more you achieve, the more worthy/loveable/validated etc you are.

Unfortunately, we live in a very externalised/goal driven world that claps achievement and boos failure. And yet failure and setbacks are part of a normal life and can be incredibly good. Without it we don't get a chance to reset and reboot, reconsider and re-evalute what life is all about and what actually makes us happy.

This talk by Brene Brown touches in the feelings of shame that we get when we feel like we didn't achieve 'perfect' and what it does to us.

www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_the_power_of_vulnerability?language=en

Vulnerability looks so scary and yet its in those moments we feel the deepest connections.

She's also written a book, well many books, but my favourite one is The Gifts of Imperfections.