Moving for grammar

[Turner8Hooch]

We are living in east London with no grammar schools near us and the secondaries are poor. I am considering moving to Chelmsford so my children can sit the 11+.

I love where we live but we can’t afford private (have 3 DC). I guess my biggest concern is what if we move and they don’t get in, I don’t want to regret leaving somewhere I love.

what would you do in my shoes? Have others considered this or done the same?

I wouldn't move for grammar unless I was happy the alternative non-grammar schools were also good (especially with 3 DC)
Would you consider moving to an area with good comps rather than the grammar system? Are there any within your range?

Completely agree with TeenPlusCat. We actually moved away from a grammar school area. We were in Buckinghamshire, where I grew up and where I went to one of the very good girls’ grammars. I did pretty well there, but we weren’t keen on the system for our own DC. Bucks is 100% grammar/upper school, so there are no comprehensives. A lot of the upper schools there have less-than-brilliant reputations. We were very uncomfortable with the idea that DS2, who would likely pass the 11+, would have access to a very different education to DS1, who has complex disabilities.

I think the key thing when moving to a grammar area is to ensure that the alternative provision is something you’re happy with and which would suit your DC. Also, every grammar is not the same as every other grammar. Even if your child is extremely academic, the school may not be the best fit for them.

Actually the majority of secondary schools in Bucks get great results considering the grammar stream is missing! It’s got many secondary schools with better results than a good many comprehensives!

The county wide grammars mean the grammars are easier to get into. The Essex grammars are super selective so you have to be very bright to get into one. In Bucks it’s a lot easier. You do need to live in the catchment area for a good secondary school as a back up. I know loads of families with DC in grammars and secondaries and they don’t move. They ensure DC get a good education in both schools. My neighbour is a headteacher and DS’s went to grammar/secondary. Likewise another neighbour who worked in HE. Many I know have DC in both school types and have been very happy. Importantly, so have their DC.

Fair enough TizerorFizz but those schools wouldn’t have worked for our DC1. (He now attends an independent special school funded by our LA, so he wouldn’t have coped at all in a huge mainstream school.) I’m just making the point that not every school suits every child.

I would never send my kids to a state school in London where English is a second language for most kids
They have ONE chance at school

I live in Essex and it seems some people have their child sit the 11 plus, see if they get into the school, and then move, with the child commuting in by train if there is a delay in the move. I am not saying I think this is a great idea but it is done. It does depend on the catchment though - it makes no difference with Colchester Royal Grammar School because there is no catchment, you can be living anywhere, they just take the the highest scoring children. It might be different with other grammars, they might have a catchment you have to be living in.

My DC's go to Grammars in the next county. I wouldn't have moved specifically for the schools and in their years, the schools were massively oversubscribed so not all got a place who passed the exam.

Seems to be a problem lately due to a bulge in birth rates, so we were told, previous years weren't so bad.

This would be us too! One at each at the same time, it was fine, nothing odd at all about different schools for different children. The one at the Secondary Modern could have transferred to a Grammar for A levels but chose not to. And FWIW now has higher academic qualifications.

I know loads of sec mod DC from Bucks who have done well academically. Finding their feet at a slightly slower pace has worked for them. Lots of parents accept this as a decent route and lots don’t move for 6th form. I would also say that plenty of secondaries here still have over 30% high achievers. These dc deserve to be well taught and achieve highly too and may well do better than some in the grammars. Around me that’s happened quite a lot. The over tutored haven’t fared well at the grammars.

Children needing a SEN school are totally different. SEN boarding especially so.

Indeed. As I've posted before on MN Education threads (and is a field I used to research in albeit some years ago), all the pedagogic evidence indicates that academic achievement is not linear – DCs have peaks and troughs and these can occur at different ages and for different reasons.

Myriad reasons for this, both relating to the pupil him or herself (style of learning, number/type of subjects, forms of exam/assessment, responses to particular teacher(s) etc) and to outside influences (school environment, home life, friendship groups etc).

@standoctor please provide the link to show the majority of kids in London secondary schools have English as a second language.

OP it's a massive risk relocating unless you like the new area and ALL the schools it has to offer? What are the train lines and admissions criteria like - could you stay in your house and they could commute to Essex or Kent?

Kent and Bexley have grammar schools. I live in a south east London borough and know DC who have got in from here so you don't necessarily have to move out of London. BUT almost all have been tutored to an inch of their lives (often from Yr2) as it's so competitive to get an out of borough place.
If you move into the borough then the mark you need to get in will obviously be lower.

You don't say how old your DC are - or how able they are. How realistic is it that they will pass?

It is a huge gamble to move just for grammar schools. In some areas that operate the grammar school system, the comprehensive options aren't that great for obvious reasons when you're operating a two-tier school system. What happens if not all your DC get in? I have known that happen to families and it can cause huge issues.
Also as others have said, the grammar school system isn't for all DC no matter how able they are. For some DC having access to good sports/music facilities is just as important plus pastoral care can be better in some secondaries.

Have you looked around the secondaries in your area?

If you have exceptionally able/musical DC then scholarships to independents are also a possibility.

The Chelmsford grammar schools do have a catchment for a certain percentage of the intake so moving closer would help your cause to an extent, BUT, both are ridiculously competitive to get into, even IC, so there would still be no guarantee. Colchester schools no catchment, still super selective though, so again, highly competitive. You'd be better as a pp said, sitting the test from living OOC and then moving when you know you have a place.

No

We seriously considered doing this for our dd1 a few years ago and even had our house on the market for awhile!

In the end, we decided against it as the sacrifice was too great (would probably have had to downsize from an area we love and take on a higher mortgage).

Dd1 still got offered a place at one of the grammars, but the travelling distance would have been 1.5 hours each way. So we had to decline the place.

She is at a more local secondary and doing well, touch wood. So in hindsight, we think we made the right decision to stay put.

OP as others have said I would think carefully before moving. You'll make the decision that's right for your family but...

We live in SE London so the Kent grammars are accessible and it's an option some go for.

Local secondary schools are apparently a mixed bag and don't meet MN standards to be considered acceptable. Much like east London.

But...

If you have 3 DC it is far from certain if you go down a selective pathway that you can secure the same one for all three.

11 plus isn't the be all and end all. Most young people in London move post 16 and all sixth forms are selective. So sixth forms have to be realistic in their offers and have to base that on public exams. GCSE 6 or above in all subjects with a higher grade in a subject chosen for A levels is the norm including the grammar school sixth forms. Unless you are aiming for one of the pickier private schools.

Grammar school cohorts are opt-in - no surprises that their pupils do well, they have supportive and motivated families.

The same kind of families support their kids in comprehensive education. Their kids do well.

What I'm saying is that it isn't a given that moving closer to a grammar school area will make the difference. You make the difference.

Lovely!
One chance to learn different views from their parent like you!

@standoctor What an ignorant thing to say. I'm actually appalled. I teach in a school where almost half the children don't have English as their first language. Guess who regularly outperform their English-mother-tongue peers??

Having to operate in two languages actually gives your brain plasticity. So it's not just about the stereotype of the ambitious child of immigrant parents, but also about the inbuilt intellectual advantage of being bilingual (as well, of course, as a heck of a lot more tolerance, cultural awareness and understanding that can actually rub off on their native British peers and make them less insular).

Anyway, before I derail the thread completely, OP I second the advice to check you would be happy with the secondary arrangements if your DC didn't get a grammar place. If not, head for somewhere with no grammars but excellent comps.

generally (not always, of course) the comps in a grammar area are worse than the ones in a non-selective area, so you'd want to be confident that all three of your kids would get in.

some London comps are indeed scary places, some are pretty good, well worth you looking at the options there.

Then you are very ignorant, as the average general behaviour and work ethic of some of the immigrant populations in east London vastly exceedes that of the white British population in outer London boroughs.

I would 100x sooner seat my child in a class of students with English as a second language in east London

OP there are some absolutely excellent comps in east London. I teach in London, and your area is where many teachers aspire to work. One of the very few places that might get a choice of applicants for job vacancies, even in the current climate

@standoctor others have rightly called you out. London is a multicultural city, many children and young people are multilingual. Some join school while still mastering English. Implying that this adversely affects others' educational outcome is old fashioned xenophobia, plan and simple.

One of my DCs goes to a Chelmsford grammar school. Children really do have to be exceptional to get in. Mine was top of the top set in an academically selective prep. If you are moving for a grammar school place you would be better off moving where the grammars are a bit less selective. Even Southend would be easier as there are two boys and two girls grammars there so the scores for in catchment are lower. There are some other reasonable state schools in Chelmsford as a backup but you will need to be careful about catchment areas as some are not so great.