11+ score - what scores needed to get into competitive London schools?

[SamPoodle123]

Does anyone know from past results, what scores were needed to get into competitive London schools such as Godolphin or Latymer Upper? I know every year it changes depending on the results of the current year applying, but there must be some idea.

If your child got into a competitive school, do you know what scores were required for that year to make the cut off?

@Londonderry34 yes, not exactly sure what you do not get. In fact, she was not even able to get a spot at her state primary in normal circumstances.... For entry it was lottery for 7 spots, as there were so many siblings and I think something like 200 applied. We did not get a spot. And her school, its very difficult to enter in later years, as its bilingual and if you miss the boat the first two years, impossible bc of the language, as difficult to catch up. Anyway, in the end we had to apply through the paid route (half the class pays and half the class gets in free). But even through the paid route, you are not guaranteed a spot as these get taken up fast. We just got lucky at that time. Anyway, I cannot just bank that she will get lucky and get in the outstanding school near us with almost 600 applicants for 120 spots.

The paid route is not a state primary in the uk

@SamPoodle123 , Atom had a document somewhere that listed the average CAT and Atom SAS for students in their platform agsinst the schools they received offers from.

I have a pdf based on data for the years 2018/19 and 2019/20, but can't for the life of me find the URL where I got it from! So posting some screenshots, and hopefully you will be able to see that.

Since you specifically asked for Godolphin & Latymer and Latymer Upper -

For G&L average Atom Learning SAS (for the two years) was 121 and for LE it was 118.

And an explanation of the numbers they had in the first page of the pdf -

A. An Atom Learning SAS will be generated when a pupil completes an Atom Learning mock test.
B. The Atom Learning SAS is lower than the CAT4 SAS because it has been standardised by, on average, higher-ability students at more competitive prep and primary schools.
C. Like the CAT4 SAS, the Atom Learning SAS has been standardised on tens of thousands of students and is verified every year based on analysis from more than 150,000 students.
D. The CAT4 SAS and Atom Learning SAS included should be used for guidance only and are the average scores for pupils who achieved an offer at the schools listed, based on the data we were able to collect from the last two academic years (2018 - 2019 & 2019 - 2020).
E. The data will be more accurate for the most competitive (popular) senior schools.
F. Grammar schools have been grouped into three tiers where ‘Tier 1’ is the most competitive. An expected SAS range has been provided for successful entry to each tier.

First time uploading images in MN, so if the images aren't clear or you would like the full PDF, plesae DM me.

@justanotherdaduser thank you so much!! So useful! This is exactly what I was looking for. And I can read these screen shots. I don’t think they have them available anymore so it’s a good thing you have them on screen shot!

@Londonderry34 sent you a private message to explain how the school works. It’s complicated! But yes it’s a state school.

@justanotherdaduser: that's just what I was trying to do!

I have a feeling a lot of the independents actually, despite doing written English/maths tests go on the CAT or other standardised scores mainly. My DC got into Westminster, Olave's etc etc and started Atom a year before (but only started using it consistently 6 months before, achieving scores of between 125-142 in the end - it was quite variable but more consistently high scores in the months leading up to the tests (and 142 on the grammar mocks etc).

He's generally scoring 136-142+ in the school standardised with somewhat lower in English but very high on VR/NVR and the 'developed ability'. I know kids who are exceptional at maths that didn't get into some of the very top schools so think that VR is very important (often used as a proxy for IQ, I think).

@bekindbewise many thanks. What were his scores when he first started using it? My dd has used atom 3 weeks now and her scores are 117-122. They do not do CATs at her school. Do some secondary schools test with CATs?

Lots of schools, both independent and state do baseline testing on new Yr7s - this is usually the CAT test or MiDYis which is very similar. They are VR/NVR type tests and children who’ve prepped for 11+ exams that use thee testing techniques are definitely advantaged in sense they are familiar with the kind of questioning.

Some will test again in Yr9/10 as the tests can give indications of GCSE performance in the various subjects. They are often testing, not so much to get an idea of individual students (although that’s useful) but the ability of the cohort so they can see likely performance of the year group.

Most schools doing entrance exams don’t rely mostly on CAT tests or other similar tests which are reported from junior schools. This is because not all schools do any of these, plus the schools themselves report the information and sometimes have the students take them multiple times across several years. They are more likely to look at them as part if an overall picture and they can be important when a student is borderline for a place. If they performed really well in the entrance exam, that will be the key thing in getting a place. If they performed terribly and the school is over subscribed, they won’t get a place. There will always be a group who are borderline and the schools an take some of them….well for those who are probably on similar entrance exam scores, things like a good CAT test can certainly swing it in one candidates favour against another.

For very competitive schools too, the Senior Head might tell Prep Heads what the range or average or median score of students who had sat CATS before applying was in the last year - to give Preps an idea of the kind of students to put forward. This is where some of these figures in publications come from. Of course those Senior Heads might slightly inflate the range of scores they’ve accepted or be quite vague about the full range, because they want Preps to send them their best students and also they want the word in the street (and on threads like this) to be that high scores are the norm….assuming they are oversubscribed! Schools don’t want to put people off applying and end up with fewer to choose from or empty seats. It’s a tricky balance.

As I said upthread, pretty much all schools will have a wider range than most people realise. Yes, some schools have larger proportions with higher ability…those are the highly competitive and over subscribed schools. But even they have some with less ability. It is all relative isn’t it. In some highly selective schools, the bottom students will be looking at getting 7s at GCSE in some subjects. Many will say that’s a fantastic achievement, but often in those schools a 7 isn’t seen as a huge success. Kids with CAT scores of perhaps 110 could certainly be expected to achieve 7s at GCSE (or sometimes higher or lower - these things predict at a macro level of thousands of students, not the individual) - so even in very top schools, there are certainly kids with CAT scores or similar ability well below 120.

Of course, whether you are so keen for your kid to get in, you don’t mind them being the one who is always bottom and struggles in an environment where getting very decent results is seen as a failure, is another thing. Some parents are so fixated on certain schools and the prestige they perceive them to bring, that they will do anything to try to lever their unsuitable child in….and then it’s not always a great success.

Sounds like your DD is doing very well! DS was initially ranging 105-125, I think, generally stanine 8/9 but the odd 7 in the early days, maybe even 6 as he had a few early mocks he didn't concentrate on. But had not done that much 11+ by then. Plus he really dipped when he wasn't in the mood. But for him, the scores were very consistent with the standardised scores he gets at school which are 136-142 usually. He is quite a sparky and with an extremely enquiring mind. He's naturally strong in VR/NVR and with a strong vocab (despite not reading much). I see lots of kids focus on NVR/maths more than the language/VR which really can set a child apart. Lots of kids seem to work very hard on the maths etc so maths is not as much of a decider as the English/VR - work on vocab!!

Also, further up the thread, someone said that if you need to tutor when your DC is in private school, then you're not of the right calibre is not true. Prep schools prepare (as is evident by their name) their students for entry tests but not all independent/private schools do this. Plus I know lots of kids in prep schools whose parents got tutors especially for the super-selective schools. Of course, if you know your child will respond well to you as a parent then by all means, I'm sure you can go it a long but it's quite a big ask. Then there are those with teachers in the family (parents, grandparents) - basically tutoring on tap! :)

As many independents do some sort of pre-test or adaptive computerised tests, these are real indicators for them and some schools will have levels for standardised scores that roughly determines where you need to sit for scholarship.

typos - should read:

"Of course, if you know your child will respond well to you as a parent then by all means, I'm sure you can go it alone without a tutor, but it's quite a big ask."

@bekindbewise thanks. Yes, we have decided to get a tutor. Our dd is a state school, which I know is behind private schools AND I know private school kids are getting tutors for the 11+. In fact, I know one that feeds into SPGS, G&L and L....and they all get tutors (a relative goes to the school). So it makes sense we do the same, especially since our dd is in a state school.

It’s interesting how everyone e using tutors thinks they are levelling the playing field.

State school families think their kids will have covered less than Prep kids,so feel they need tutors to level the playing field. Then Prep families hear state school kids have tutors with good success records for local schools and very targeted tutoring (probably more focused than the 11+ work done at their Prep where multiple schools with different exams are being prepped for) so decide they need a tutor to level the playing field too. And it’s a tutoring arms race. Some start saying an hour a week isn’t enough and they’ve heard of people doing 3 hours etc etc.

Sometimes people think a tutor means you pay your cash and can let go of the responsibility and burden. It’s often not the case. Tutors will want kids to do Hwk and it will be parents who have to schedule and organise it and in lots of cases sit with their kids as they do it. That whole issue of potential conflict between parents and kids still exists. Plus even with tutors a parent has to be proactive and think a head about timescales and getting everything covered. It’s the same with Prep schools. Parents might think the6ve paid so can now forget it, but often find they need to do more than they thought they would. And if they don’t, but back off entirely, the impact and benefit is far less.

Having gone through it a couple of times, I know it’s a horrid phase. Our kids actually went to Prep. We had a choice of 2 good local Preps. One was the Junior of the local successful independent senior of choice and could give entry to the senior on recommendation without need for entrance exam. The other was a Prep which was prepping for a far wider range of schools, including boarding schools far away. We chose the latter. At certain points during 11+ prep, I thought I must have been mad not to go to the Prep where the exam stress could have been avoided. However, with hindsight we felt we made the right choice. The Prep we didn’t go to seemed rather complacent as they didn’t need to prep for exams, and although the majority did go into the senior, a good number of them probably wouldn’t have got in ‘on the open market’ and subsequently were the strugglers throughout school and those who later faced 6th form options they didn’t like at the school, because GCSE results weren’t good enough for the A Level options they wanted. Quite significant numbers of those who came form the feeder Prep went elsewhere for 6th Form as a result. They hadn’t always had a happy time at the senior, if they’d sneaked in, but really struggled.

And the 11+ prep, although miserable at the time, had advantages. Just doing the work improved the maths of my kids immensely and meant they started the senior school (which they got into by passing the exam) much stronger. That Prep which prepped for lots of different schools was entirely different to the feeder junior school. It was both ambitious and prepped throughly for both 11+ and 13+ but it also prepped for a wide range of those if schools and those which would accommodate different abilities, so all the kids could go to a school which suited them, rather than being under pressure to squeeze the not quite so able into the linked senior, which really wasn’t quite right for them.

In the end, some level of work is needed to give the kids the best chance of getting places, even if it’s more familiarisation than full home or paid tutoring. I think it’s also important to hold fairly lightly to any individual school and to have a range of options. Some schools don’t suit some kids. It’s important to accept that rather than to try to shoe horn them in and to be devastated and unwittingly make them feel like failures, if they don’t get places. The big message they need to hear is that YOU as parent have it in hand. YOU are making sure there will be a good school for them. You might need them to do some work as part if the journey snd process, but they can rest assured that at the end, you will ensure there’s a good school for them.

The trouble comes when parents badmouth some schools or strongly favour one option over others. Sometimes they do it directly to their kids. Other times they do it whilst talking to other adults, in hearing of their kids. That’s when anxiety and pressure which 10 year olds shouldn’t have to face creeps in and fear of failure. They need to know that you’ve got it in hand. They need to know you’ve got confidence in the school they get. You have to deliver that message.

Good Lord that's a great post! Yes, all of that.

DC and DPL by any chance??

@WombatChocolate thanks for your feedback. Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Originally, I did not want to get a tutor for my dd. But then a family member said I was crazy not to (her dd goes to a feeder school to SPGS, G&L, LU) and she was like everyone is tutoring like crazy, working many hours a week on prep etc. This is exactly what I do not want....over tutoring and all that pressure on my dd. However, I did think a tutor once a week could not hurt, esp when she barely has any HW. I also gave her the choice. I asked if she wanted a tutor. She chose yes and she chooses to do the atom learning herself. She is motivated and she also wants to apply to the super selective schools. So I chose to support her (Even though I favour the less competative schools). For her though, she seems to actually enjoy the tutoring sessions and doing the learning journey's and mock tests.

I also remind her that certain schools will suit her better and it is the school that will figure out if she is a good match or not. Just because she does not get into one school, it is not a bad thing, it just means it was not a right fit for her. And also, she will end up in the school she is meant to be. Of course as a parent, I just want her to be happy at school, in an environment she feels comfortable in and thrives. I just hope whatever school she gets into it is the right fit and she will be happy! My point of this thread was really to get an idea of her ability to get in and if it was a very far reach or if she might have a chance...to help set her expectations correctly. I know no one can answer this for me. But it helps to see the score list someone sent and get the feedback from previous posters.

@WombatChocolate fantastic post, thank you!
Wish I had read something like this a year earlier :-/

OP, I could have this all wrong but I don’t think I have given your posts,…if the LFCdG has changed its policy and you’ DD is not going to get an automatic spot from EdW why wouldn’t you pull her out how and send her private.
BWA (any of the 3 streams) has no history of sending kids to the West London schools, SPGS or G&Letc. Doesn’t mean there isn’t a first time for everything but it seems like a bit of a gamble. You’ll have more luck with the likes of JAGS.

@BobbyeinArkansas I would never do that to my dd. She loves her school and her friends. What purpose would that serve? It is too late and I do not think switching her school will help one bit to get her into secondary. Perhaps if she was in year 4 and we were transferring her to start mid Jan. But at this rate the switch would not happen until next year when she starts year 6 as its almost end of year already. We only found all this out a few weeks ago so this is why we are late to the 11+ prep. Every year her school sends 2-3 kids to one of the super selective schools, so it is not the impossible task (not one to SPGS though!). But you are right, def a gamble! Most do end up going to LFCdG or state schools. I am not keen on her to go to any of the super selective schools, but will support her in trying because that is what she wants. I am more keen on the middle schools (which are still hard to get into!). Will still apply to state schools of course.

What is JAGS?

JAGS is www.jags.org.uk/

one of the finest schools south of the River Thames

Thanks! I never heard of it. It is an hour away though, so thinking it will be too far for us.

It's a big generalisation of course but most kids in this area going private, assuming you live BTC or close to BWA, target, (along with Emmanuel (co-ed) and Streatham & Clapham (g)), the 3 Dulwich schools, Alleyns (co-ed), JAGS (girls) and Dulwich (boys) The coaches go direct and do pick ups from Broomwood Road, Nightingale lane etc.
Anyway I realise that wasn't what you asked but if your DD is super bright, don't discount JAGS. If she's a bright child, she'll get in somewhere decent.
Best of luck, either way it's a stressful time without LFCdG throwing this last minute bombshell..(quel surprise!)