Secondary schools/Milton Keynes/Grammar schools

[Mamanij]

Hello.
We moved to the UK 2 years ago. My oldest is now in secondary school and I am feeling unsure about a number of things and I do not know if its down to a difference in culture/attitude/expectations or it's due to the school she is at (even if it is considered top 3 in Milton Keynes) . I feel in my daughter's current school there are a lot of behaviour issues, classroom disruption, indiscipline and I find the homework load to be quite low. I have a few British friends who say, it's 'normal' - talking back at the teacher, some kids walking out of class declaring they aren't going to do that lesson, vaping etc. Another friend has a child at a grammar school and she told me that their discipline policy and follow through is thorough. I have also looked at the performance table and seen such a big gap in terms of what the top 3 MK schools have as their GCSE results and the results of other schools out of the area and grammar schools in buckingham/aylsebury. So my questions are:

1. Would you say that the kind of behaviour at our school is the norm and expected at most comprehensives here?


2. Would a good independent probably have higher academic aspirations, better classroom management and discipline expectations and follow through?

If i knew about grammar schools at the start of our move, we would probably have bought a house elsewhere to be in catchment.
Part of me wonders how much time is wasted on the behaviour issues, thus losing out on academic/ teaching time. My daughter is quite level headed so far and is doing well (based on the school standards) but I just feel uncomfortable at the thought of the academic standards and also thinking about her brother in that environment and fear I am not providing the best options for them.

A certain amount of low level behaviour issues is normal in your average comprehensive school, yes. Grammar and independent schools are also not exempt from these things! Vaping also normal everywhere (walking out the classroom; not so much - surely this isn't a regular thing!?) The main thing to consider if how the school deals with it. A certain amount of chat with the teacher is usual - classrooms tend to be relaxed; but again it's up to the teacher to make sure this doesn't take over the lesson.
Schools vary in homework policies. More is not necessarily better. And, as I've discovered with my own 2 children, children often have the option to expand or contract children (e.g. doing the bare minimum for a write up about subject x, versus fully researching it and writing something comprehensive).

You should be aware that Aylesbury grammars take the top 20-25% of the ability level whereas an MK comp will take 100% of it. so it's not really surprising that grammars have significantly better results and comparing results is not particularly useful. Again, it is very school dependent, but I would not say that aspirations at a comp are lower than at an independent/grammar - but there will be more higher achieving children at grammars/comps so the work ethos may be different.

I'd say the main thing is whether your DC is happy and progressing as you'd expect.

Thank you very much @RedskyThisNight for taking the time to reply. I would say in extreme cases, the school deals with it by calling in for another staff member to come and take out the child, however how much time is wasted on this things and thus the teacher probably cannot finish teaching what was planned? The disruption as well as the work ethos are of major concern. My DC gets rewards and good feedback because of good behaviour- I guess DC is shining because 1. yes, good, decent/ respectful behaviour and class participation 2.probably in comparison, DC is shining in that setting.
However, I see that there is no push for DC to do better academically. DC is capable of higher performance and better quality homework, but right now the encouragement and push to fulfil potential is only coming from home and this can lead to DC looking at it like- it's just my family fussing over nothing, my teachers don't have a problem with my work (which is understandable as teachers have a whole class of 30 and cannot be expected to do more than they do) .
I think it looks like we will just have to do more work with DC at home to support fulfil potential for GCSE's and look at A levels elsewhere to minimize social/well being disruptions as DC is settled/happy at current comprehensive. Perhaps we look at options for DC 2 who is a different character and I feel could be swayed negatively in such a setting. We have 2 years before number 2 joins secondary so need to decide if start preparing to try out for a selective school.
Many thanks for bearing with my long post 😊and questions and giving some insight on the situation.

In terms of Bucks Grammars do you even live near enough in MK to have this as an option/concern? This year's initial allocation round looks as though it did not reach as far as any MK address for all grammars except the girls high, and that only reaches as far as roughly the Shenleys. There may be some movement but it looks as though this year no MK boys would have got a Bucks Grammar place in the first round. Long term it will not improve due to the huge estates going up in Aylesbury and on the very southern and western edges of MK.
(Also, poor behaviour happens in all schools. For what it's worth I volunteer virtually with several secondarys in MK and for the most part the behaviour I've seen (albeit via a screen) has been impeccable.)
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the grass isn't always greener.

Thank you @MillicentMargaretAmanda . we live in Shenley and yes, it looks like it's tough to make it catchment wise if we continue to live here hence why I was looking at possibly independents but wanted to know if the experience is generally the norm in terms of discipline issues and academic performance/ aspirations before making any big decisions and like you rightly say, the grass isn't always greener. Really appreciate your time and input.

If you can afford it without struggle it's worth looking into independents. I know very little about secondary independents in MK itself. The few people I know who have used independents have gone up to Northhampton or over to Bedford. If you have specific ones you're thinking of considering I'd definitely look up on here/start threads asking for specific information? I think Thorntom College is considered to be a 'nice' school and probably has good behaviour being a nice, Catholic girls school but that doesn't necessarily mean that your daughter will achieve much more there than she would in her current school. Generally, the most important piece in the puzzle of education is parental support. It sounds like she's got that in spades so I'd consider saving your money for any tutoring that may be needed, or brilliant extra curricular activites as needed/wanted. You can potentially look to grammars for 6th form?
I understand how stressful it can be so good luck!

Grammar schools will have better results because they picked kids who passed their test at age 11. You need to compare comprehensives with comprehensives not comprehensives with grammars. If there were no grammar schools nearby, the kids who travel from Mk would be at schools like Shenley making their results better.

I can't comment on the private school bit but my kids went to comprehensives and low level disruption was the norm. They weren't the ones giving teachers grief and left with grades high enough for the next stage so that is fine. The stuff like fighting, vaping (I'm assuming out of school) , chatting is problems teachers face in all schools.

Comprehensives can't kick out disruptive students because of government policy. Grammar schools have fewer disruptive kids as a result of being selective. They may do stuff like vape on the way home because that's what many teens do regardless of background.

Some comprehensives prefer kids to be doing extra curricular stuff like sport and music rather than homework. Have you thought about your child doing that kind of thing for their mind ?

Oh and just to reiterate that grammar does not necessarily equal better behaviour, a Yr 11 at Royal Latin said to me a few weeks ago 'my xxxxxx class is feral'....

My DD is at AHS (girl's grammar in Aylesbury). There are quite a few in her class who are from MK. It makes it hard for them to meet up after school. I know that SHFGS used to have a large cohort from MK (maybe still do, but I haven't any recent experience). So moving to Aylesbury/Buckingham wouldn't have been necessary.

I can't comment on schools and behaviour in MK, except that my friend's children were at a school there and have done well.

If you want bad behaviour then the secondaries in Aylesbury may shock you.

Oh and just to add, if you'd moved to Aylesbury/Buckingham and your child had failed the 11+, you'd be stuck with secondaries as there are no comprehensives in Bucks (MK is not counted as Bucks for educational or council purposes). Bucks secondaries (especially Aylesbury), tend to be pretty poor.

From Shenley you may be able to look at RLS - it’s a great school.

Thanks @MillicentMargaretAmanda .
I recently heard about Bedford (high, modern and girls) and it’s commutable I think.. I didn’t know about Northhampton as an option. Do you know of schools I should look at? We are def supporting as much as possible but was just worried I guess as so much is different from what we are used to where we are from. We have started some little tutoring for the core subjects to support and to try and ensure it doesn’t get overwhelming later. I think for DC1 we will leave at the comprehensive but for DC2…the personality/character is of concern for me with what I hear/ see so just wanted to look at options.

Thanks @CareBearsCare . Do you mean compare with other comprehensives in my area or comprehensives considered to be doing well in the country? I ask because our comprehensive is top 3 in MK. But when I look at their results on the gov site they have around 51-53% scoring grade 5 or above in English and Math in GCSE. Is that considered good for comprehensives or is that just based on other comprehensives in MK? If you have some comprehensives that I can add to my list then I would be happy just so that I’m comparing like for like.

The vaping I was talking about happened IN school. One case was actually in class.

Yes, mine are involved in extra sports clubs after school- football, basketball and competitive club swimming between them as per their interests and talents.

I honestly appreciate the input on this thread and hope that my post and comments are been read in the tone I am writing as I am a foreigner from a different education system seeking to understand and support my kids.

Haha... ironically, this is comforting to know 😅

51-53% in English and maths at grades 5-9 is very good for a comprehensive school (actually I didn't realise there were any schools in MK getting such high results). It's a statistic that tells you more about the intake than necessarily the school though - progress 8 may be a more useful indicator.

You should also bear in mind that we've had 2 years of non-exams, so there won't be any up to date league tables.

Hi @Player456 What is SHFGS? I didn’t even know there is a difference between comprehensives and secondaries. I feel so overwhelmed at times trying to understand stuff… How is AHS? Is your DD happy there? do they have special exams to get in for A levels or do they just look at the GCSE results ?

Thank you @RedskyThisNight I did not know that progress 8 is worth looking at. I was so focused on GCSE results. Their progress 8 is of course much lower than grammars. I guess I need to know what would be a decent comprehensive to give me a good, like for like basis to compare with.

Shfgs is Sir Henry Floyd Grammar School - the mixed Grammar in Aylesbury.

Be mindful your child may not be able to continue competitive swimming with a long commute to school. The school buses leave early and don't respect morning training.

My kids are at SBE. It's a good school and some kids get exceptionally high results. Did you come to the music concert before Easter? The standard was fantastic - they are massively supportive from beginner to expert. There are music clubs before and after school.

Selective schools will always do better whether Grammar- where as others point out they cream the top slice. Or Independent where they can afford smaller class sizes. But what you will lose I'm travel time is the time to do activities during the week. You will lose the independence to get themselves to/from school.

Stop looking at what you think kids gain by going to Grammar. I can assure you life is what you make it....support your child and she will do great.

To point out that grammar schools also have issues with behaviour. Many children are tutored to the end of the earth to get in and then struggle once they are there. They mess around and cause low level disruption to hide the fact.

You are also missing the point about GCSE results. You wouldn’t be surprised about the winning result of a race between an Olympic sprinter and me - you would expect it. I might get the fastest time in the county (so a grade 9) but come second. I still got my 9 though. Same applies to comparing selective vs non selective schools. Bright children can and do extremely well in non selective schools. In fact, our local comprehensive sends more children to Oxbridge each year than the very highly regarded independent in the same town which gets overall far better GCSE and A-level results. Just because the whole comp school isn’t getting the highest grades doesn’t mean that some children aren’t.

I would take a great comp getting the sorts of results you have mentioned over a grammar where they are only selecting the very brightest to start with if it meant there was a much shorter journey to school. A two hour a day round commute is not fun.

OP- I'm a SBE parent too. My daughter left S and went to University if Birmingham with her A* A A grades. There were kids with even higher grades.

What I meant is you can't compare Bucks and MK schools easily because of the grammar issue. If the top students at my kid's primary in MK went to MK secondaries then those schools would get the high grades from those students.

If the top kids in Bucks didn't have grammars then their non-grammar schools would get the high marks.

You need to consider that GCSEs are written so x% fail. If 100% achieved grade 5-9 then it's pointless to have an exam. People are admitted to S based on their address. They can't take just the smart kids. Saying that, part of the reason that the 50% get the 5-9 is because the primary schools have higher than average results so their GCSEs should be too.

What sets are your kids in? If they are say top 3 or 4 out of 8 sets then they will probably be in the 50% to get grade 5-9. Top set doesn't mean guaranteed grade 7-9 but it's very possible. My dd achieved all 7/8/9 at GCSE and there's a girl in her year who got one 8 and the rest 9.

RL seems to be the most popular Bucks grammar in our part of MK. I feel a bit sorry for the kids who get back over an hour later than S students though.

You need to step away from the statistics. They tell you more about intake than the quality of the school (unless they are way out of kilter with the school's intake).

Is your child happy? Is she progressing? Is she being supported?

Those are the questions you need to ask.

Schools can only do so much. My DS and his best friend did virtually the same GCSE subjects and sat through the same lessons, and yet best friend achieved much better results than DS. Along the way DS discovered he had other skills/talents that weren't so academic based and these were supported too.

Thank you @Mumdiva99 . You are right that swimming training would be impacted. We will keep supporting DC in academics and sports. I do feel more confident and reassured. Thank you.

Thank you @BookwormButNoTime . The olympic example is helpful and this thread has been really great at putting my mind at ease by helping me understand the system and also behaviour expectations

Progress 8 is not necessarily higher in a grammar school. Progress 8 measures a student’s progress from year 7 to year 11. So it is a better gauge than the GCSE result. Yes a year 11 grammar school student may well get a better grade at GCSE, but they will have been at a higher starting point in year 7. Progress 8 is reflective of the school, rather than the student.