SWLondon - applying for privates, how many and risk profile

[AlwaysMoreThanMeetsTheEye]

About to embark, for the first time, on the application process for secondary private schools in SW London. Would really welcome advice from people on their experiences in terms of number of schools they applied to and risk profile (i.e how many so-called safe options / bankers, although accepting that increasingly difficult to identify what falls in that category!! )... and whether that strategy proved successful.

We are thinking maximum of 5/6 exams and torn on the number of safe options as want to play safe (I am naturally risk averse) but also to aim for what feels right for my DD (both in academic turns and other factors, which are not necessarily aligned with the level of ease of entry)

Thanks in advance

@EmotiveBubblez we did a couple of sports scholarship applications and applied for but pulled out of some music ones (although we had done some music applications for state). I was mindful of the commitment possibly involved and we weren't desperately serious so went in with no great expectation, but to my mind the application was a way to indicate keen-ness, a chance for DD to show a bit more of herself and for her to get more of a feel for the schools, teachers and potential classmates. This last point was key actually - the sports assessments she did were quite full-on 1/2 day affairs, but really helped her picture "being there", more than any of the other events.

@MajorGeneralDogsbody well this was my thinking to show that she is keen on the school.

The schools she did the scholarship applications for did she get offers from them?

1/2 day ? What did the sports application entail?

@EmotiveBubblez Have a look as well as the leavers destinations / offers lists for: Bute House, Falkner, Glendower, Ken Prep, Fulham Prep, Redcliffe Gardens - that'll give you a good list. Even the "best" prep schools have a few girls each year who don't make it to "top" secondaries (god, I hate that phrase!) so there's a good spread. Does your DD have CAT scores from her current school? They're a pretty good indicator of where you might pitch your aspirational / target / bankers schools. And as I think someone else mentioned, Atom Learning would be a worthwhile investment, even if only for a month, to get a sense where to pitch things.

Parents are (on the whole) competitive about the 11+ everywhere. I think most prep school heads urge parents / girls not to discuss it at all as it all gets rather toxic, very quickly!

Totally agree, get the CAT scores. CAT scores are a great guide to which schools to apply. CAT scores at age 11 also have an 81% correlation with GCSE scores at age 16. Super helpful and insightful.

Unfortunately, most primary schools don’t do CAT scores. It really is tricky applying without any advice on schools or sense of where they are in their cohort.

Atom helps to some extent, but by its nature it’s not going to pick up things like ability at creative writing, or the ability to make interesting links across various topics and discuss them. It’s constrained by needing to do just the type of maths and English that’s susceptible to answering via multiple choice answers. I got the impression that that’s not all the schools are looking for - otherwise they wouldn’t bother interviewing or (in some cases, I know some use ISEB) setting their own exam papers.

Excellent points. I did not know other schools do not do CATS. That makes it really difficult to figure out.

@EmotiveBubblez , you raise a very valid point re: total number of assessments and nature. Some assessments are more straightforward / less time consuming than others, some assessments allow you to apply for different schools, and you need to factor in the overall time and effort commitment for each application process (which might involve also scholarship assessments).

@EmotiveBubblez yes she got offers from both and nice feedback although no scholarship (no real surprise there).

In terms of application, we needed to supply specific sports reference from current school PE teacher or external coach. Also one of them asked for a 5 min video submission initially before they selected candidates for the 1/2 day. This was pretty challenging tbh and may well have put people off (probably the idea!). It was actually worth the effort though as DD really put some good thought and personal stamp on it, and it was a good experience. We only had a few snatches of pre-existing video and managed to get a bit more (not easy in rainy December!) but interspersed this with photographs of all kinds of things and she did a voice over and it was a good effort in the end.

From what I gathered, the 1/2 days were a carousel of quite a few different sports - e.g. netball, cricket, tennis, swimming, bleep test, and some group interviews ("what makes a good team player?" etc) and in one case a large lunch. The schools are also trying to sell themselves at these things too, remember!

It depends on what the school's key sports are I suppose - one included a parallel sessions on the day for those applying with dance/gym. DD said there were a few girls at the second that she'd remembered from the first which was nice. She was also exhausted afterwards, so I was glad I'd rearranged one of her other interviews for a different day - initially I thought she might be able to fit both in, but someone talked sense into me!

I would second Atom Learning - I think a lot of preps use these kind of online programs, and so coming from state it's a way of trying to level the playing field. We found it very useful.

I know not all primary schools do CAT tests, but I think a fair number do (I think I read somewhere that 2/3 of state schools do CAT tests).
@EmotiveBubblez It's definitely worth asking the school if they've done them and asking for the scores if they have.
@HighRopes Interestingly, I've been told that a lot of the assessments since the pandemic have relied more on VR / NVR and that there's been less opportunity for girls to shine in creative writing etc in the past 3 years. Even G&L is only doing ISEB + interview.

I also agree with Emotive. It’s not just the assessments, it’s that you can’t then slack off on the instrument practice if your dd has a heavy week of exams (which we most certainly did, she did a lot of fun duets and aural stuff rather than any grade work in the autumn term), if she also has a couple of auditions coming up.

Similarly with sport, if you’re not going for sports scholarships, you don’t need to worry if exams clash with matches or practise, as sport is just for fun, not something she will be assessed on.

I do think that, unless your dd is completely obsessive about music or sport, it’s probably best to let her pick what she wants to spend her time on (Y7/8 is a great time to try new things) rather than locking her in to a particular activity via a scholarship. IME, if she is musical or sporty, the school will pick that up and she will have opportunities, despite not being a music / sports scholar. But I appreciate that the money / lessons / opportunities that come with scholarships can be an important factor.

Peak Mumsnet!

I agree with @HighRopes - girls will find their place in the things they're good at, and scholarships (from what I've been told) do limit other opportunities. From what I can gather, scholarships are largely about the prestige of having them (not least given very few of them are more than 10% of fees). And outside of the scholars (and their parents), I wonder if any really cares about them?!

Thank you for all your responses. @HighRopes got it right, not many state primary schools do CATs which makes it incredibly difficult. Ours certainly don't and when I spoke to the Head and mentioned the following schools: G&L, PHS, QG, More House and FHSS his response was she is capable of getting into them.

But what does that mean? She is top 3 in her class but how do the others compare to everyone else in the locality. At open days when I have spoken frankly to the heads about our daughter coming from a state school they say don't tutor but clearly everyone is and what worries me even more is that prep schools have been preparing since year 4 and then some get tutors. So incredibly difficult to gauge where things are but MN has been invaluable.

Yes, we are on Atom - it is very useful but difficult for a 9/10 year old to get round when its not used in school and seen as part of the curriculum. But nevertheless she is using it and I try for it not be cumbersome but difficult when she knows its only sole purpose is for the 11 + (parent to a cynical child). I will look for the CAT scores document.

I would like to remain with my initial thought about all of this which is "the right school will find her and vice versa". Equally its bloody difficult to not worry and go down a black hole of research and anxiety (which I am keeping to myself).

The London Consortium are changing their assessment for 2023 entry so won't be doing the ISEB pre-test. They have not said what they will be doing.

State primary schools only prepare you for SATS they do not cover NVR or VR.

As for scholarships that is very helpful @MajorGeneralDogsbody I think I will stick with my initial plan and apply for scholarships at two schools cannot believe I was mad enough to think I could do it for all LOL.

@EmotiveBubblez , you should consider entering your dd for some of the Sutton grammar mocks this summer - the details are on elevenplusexams.co.uk website. This will give you an idea of where she sits in her cohort across SW London.

We are also trying to work out what is a reasonable number of schools to apply to, and where we should apply…

Im interested that you said the consortium are not doing ISEB this year. Can I ask where you heard this?

Sorry, question was for @EmotiveBubblez !

@bigredbook they mention on their website they will be developing a bespoke test.

"To this end, we are engaging with a number of providers to consider a future test which would give us the best profile of a child’s potential in all areas of cognition. This process will be undertaken over the coming months and we hope that in due course we will be able to introduce a bespoke Consortium assessment process which will be innovative, equitable, and inspiring. We continue to be concerned by the pressure and anxiety which is generated by the industry around tutoring for entrance examinations, and we seek to minimise both the scope for such commercial exploitation as well as the dull ‘teaching to the test’ which reduces the creativity and enjoyment in learning for pupils in Years 5 and 6. Although such an aim will never be entirely successful, we wish to send the message that we value potential and difference."

It is not confirmed but hoping they will confirm the testing requirements soon.

@EmotiveBubblez thank you

@EmotiveBubblez I would trust your head teacher: even if only a small number of children get into private secondaries from your DD's school, he still knows your DD's capabilities, and historically what kind of child has got into the schools. It sounds like he's very confident of her abilities, so I would definitely take some assurances from that if I were you!

Also, just by way of reassurance: I know prep school kids are obviously at an advantage at 11+ for all sorts of reasons, but at my DD's prep (one of the "top" London ones), they don't start 11+ prep until Year 5, and then it's just half an hour a week of doing VR / NVR from Bond / G&L / CEM books, effectively by themselves, at their own pace (eg the kind any parent can buy on Amazon). They don't start doing any online or timed tests until the beginning of Year 6. I think there's a misnomer that all prep school kids spend 2 years cramming for 11+ - they really don't! (I'd be furious as a parent if they did - that's not what education is about). So if you're doing those practice books, plus Atom, then you're giving your DD a great way in.

Re tutors - lots of parents of state school primary kids say they're useful for getting DCs used to doing practice papers etc. Others say that switched on parents can just as easily do it themselves. It seems to me that you are pretty switched on! But maybe worth asking some of the parents of state school children who got into top schools (eg @HighRopes with two daughters at / going to SPGS) for advice on that.

Thank you @hockeygrass thank you but sadly it is all sold out.

@EmotiveBubblez it sounds like you are doing all the right things at this stage. Lining something up for the summer as a trial run is a good idea for getting your daughter in the zone (e.g. grammar mocks). Be mindful that the grammar scrum can be worse than the independents though so take the results with a decent pinch of salt. Many of the grammar 11+ candidates will have been doing weekly classes (+ homework) with tutoring outfits for months. Mocks are good to give your DD a taster and see how she copes with "exam conditions".

Try to keep your nerve and do what works for your DD (not what you think should work!). Keep doing stuff that interests you as a family so that she has lots to talk about. Staying as chilled as possible and having multiple plan B's (including state options) is key as well, to avoid chance of crushing disappointment for you/DD. I truly think the right school finds the child, but you need to facilitate that. There are lots of state schools which have quotas of places for other criteria (music, language, sport etc) meaning you don't necessarily need to live super close. It's a bit of work to seek all this out but each council has a secondary transfer booklet with information about all their state schools - which is a good place to start. Look at previous years versions if necessary. Some of the state additional criteria things we applied to had application dates as early as May of Year 5. Obviously travel is a massive consideration, but there are an amazing array of schools out there once you start looking. Good luck!

Thank you @LondonMum20222 and @MajorGeneralDogsbody for the advice, truly appreciated. On the hunt for some mocks for her to do.

I will look at some state schools too. Location is key so will start with that.