11+ or not??

[TrooBloo]

I live in an area where everybody is massively against the 11+. I can’t quite work out why, whether it’s because you need to tutor and therefore it’s for those that can afford it, or if they just don’t like the disparity between children. Not far away though, think next town, it’s a different culture. 11+ is the ONLY way to go.

I am on the fence between those two. 11+ for the right child.

My son is bright and an all rounder. He could definitely pass his 11+ And go to grammar school. But I don’t know if it’s a good idea. It would mean travel to a different town, therefore friends not necessarily local. I worry about mental health too - is high pressure a good idea? Is single sex a good idea too?

Has anybody else been in the fence, how did you come to a decision? I feel so stuck and can’t talk to anyone in real life as I’ll be shot down in flames for daring mention the word ‘grammar’ - people don’t even consider out of area schools, it’s the local comprehensive or nothing!

You need to develop a thick skin.

You need to establish where your DS would thrive. Would he relish what the grammar offers? You don’t have to run with the pack or listen to them. In addition, friends should respect your position. Your DS is your responsibility, not theirs.

I would get the tutoring and see how he gets on. If he enjoys what he is being taught, why would you not give him the chance?

Plenty of DC travel to school to another town. No one where I was brought up declined a grammar place to stay local. Friends might come from a wider area but that’s ok and he will be fine with that. I don’t think the work is onerous for the children suited to that education. Don’t let your socialist neighbours put you off from doing your best for DS. You are guiding him, not their political views. Evaluate the schools and if he wants to try for the grammar, and you think it’s best for him, go with it.

Thank you so much for your reply, I really appreciate it. You are definitely right, I do need to do those things, it is so tough to know what is best.

My DS is naturally bright and enjoys reading, art and personal research. But he is also a child - and enjoys playing computer games and having fun! He is not interested in tutoring and sitting a test for ‘no reason’ and ultimately is worried about staying with his friends. All of his friends are going to the local school so that’s what he wants to do. I think it’s hard to explain to a 10 year old what his future could mean if he chooses to go elsewhere.

Ultimately i agree a child who wants to learn will learn anywhere. But speaking from experience, it helps to have good teachers and be in a class with like minded friends!

I am not 100% sure if he would thrive in grammar. It could be the making of him or it could be overwhelming. There is a real middle ground there for him. He likes routine, he is a rule follower and is happy to just get on with things. Definitely able to work under his own steam and can be trusted to get on. But his happiness is important to me and I feel like I don’t know my own child because I don’t know if grammar is the right route. It’s difficult having no experience of grammar from either side of the family or from friends, it’s reputation only!

He is scared of the unknown. He doesn’t know anyone who goes to the grammar I assume. Are you able to show him the prospectus and what it offers? Do they have clubs and activities he would like?

I can see he likes his friends now but at secondary they can drift off. So he will make new friends at the grammar. Those DC will share his interests and have fun too. Intelligent DC aren’t serious all the time!

When do you get to visit the grammar? I had DDs who both went to secondary not knowing anyone else. If was no issue at all. The school was the best for them. Local ones were not. Just talk to him about any advantages at the grammar and don’t leave all the decisions to him. Guide him.

Does the grammar school have an open day? Look it up on their website.

The same for the local school as well - they'll have an open day too. Go and have a look at both.

Also friends change massively at secondary. My DD isn't friends with anyone from her primary, nor my DS for that matter.

Do you still have friends from primary?

Also look at the GCSE and A-level results. I'm sorry to say but often these things do matter in the outside world. A lot. Not always, but much of the time.

I agree with @TizerorFizz, you know your child best, you are the best person to decide what school will suit him better. We had 2 at GS and 1 at Secondary Modern – pretty sure the latter doesn't feel second best, and in fact now has higher academic qualifications than the others.

Generally speaking, friends come from a wider area anyway at secondary school and as pp have said very few people remain close friends with the people from primary school because interests etc change.

I was on the fence. DD is naturally bright but her real interests are art and sport. Where we live, the grammar places are often filled by kids who went to private primary school and pretty much everyone has been tutored. DD is in state primary and while bright, she would’ve definitely needed tutoring and she really didn’t want to. She also didn’t want to do an exam.

I took the view that after school I wanted her to do her extra curricular hobbies and spend time with friends rather than be tutored and I didn’t want the pressure of the exam hanging over her. If she had been motivated to do it and happy with tutoring and exam pressure then I would’ve loved her to do it to give her more options when it came to the final choice of secondary school.

Some of her friends took it and failed and their confidence is really low now, some refused on the day to take it and worked themselves in a state, a couple passed but not got the local grammar but one miles away and one got the local one but will not know anyone else going so I’m pleased with the decision we made for our child but of course that’s not going to be right for everyone. She’s year 6 now and we’ve got our first choice of secondary which is a v good single sex school that I think will suit her down to the ground.

My DC had no tutoring. Now everyone does. I can see that’s an issue. I think DC has to want the grammar enough to do the work but the quality of the local school is also a factor. If it’s not a good school, getting to the grammar might be a better option for all sorts of reasons.

Taking a selection test is always going to end in disappointment for some. However no one is ever a long term failure and parents should not build up expectation. It’s just about trying. Where there are super selective grammars, there are usually decent alternatives. County wide selection has a much larger percentage of DC selected for the grammars. It’s really up to parents to manage expectation and DC really should not be allowed to think they are failures where the schools take so few. In fact no child is a failure.

The limited empirical evidence that's available tends to suggest that grammar schools don't add very much value at all once you control for prior attainment. Obviously they have no more budget per head than comps (and hence don't have smaller class sizes or anything), teach the same syllabuses, etc.

And I wouldn't dismiss the benefits of a short commute.

A lot turns on what the alternative is like, e.g. is it a true comp or more like a secondary modern? does it send many kids to top universities? does it practice streaming or setting and if so in what subjects & from what age? what are behavioural standards like? etc etc.

I suggest you go and see the schools on open days & let your DS speak to current pupils etc.
By the time we had done 8 open days dd had a non grammar single sex first choice locally, rather than a grammar in the next town with the travel that it would entail. (Which was fortunate as she was a couple of marks short in the end so we couldn't go for them anyway)
If he is naturally super bright and should pass with minimal input i can recommend home study books and mini tests with a couple of professional mock tests. Might be a little less stressful than formal tutoring.

Thank you all for your very helpful insights.

Looking at the local, my god it is awful. Requires improvement with ofsted, 29% getting 5+ at gcse. Average score for the core subjects being an E in old money. Compared to the grammar which is ofsted outstanding, 98% 5+ and average score being A- in old money (level 7). So, huge disparity. I don’t think I could send him there regardless, so he will end up not being with friends anyway. But I do agree, I didn’t hang around with anyone from my primary school when I went to secondary.

I have found another comprehensive if he fails 11+ (as the grammar is very hard to get into, takes the top 20% I believe) which is performing much better so I feel like there are two good options. Both require a commute and they’re very similar, 25 minutes for the comprehensive and 35 for the grammar although this doesn’t include waiting around for buses etc, really the grammar would mean getting home at 4:15 vs 3:35 and then a big disparity of homework but they have a lot to offer. The grammar starts GCSEs a year early and insisted on DofE which I think is nice, if not hard work!

@puffyisgood what is a secondary modern? What is streaming and setting? Sorry - new to this!

The grammar is oxbridge focussed, definitely.

@puffyisgood
The grammar schools near me have above average progress. Few other schools do. This is probably down to better teaching. The spend per head being equal.

You need to see the schools and also have a look at the admission criteria. For the local grammars here, they have a relatively small catchment and out of catchment places are allocated on a score basis - so your DS would need a very high score to get in.

Ultimately it was the right choice for my DS but it has been a struggle at times. Whilst he's had to raise his game to keep up with expectations, when there are super bright boys who appear to do well with little revision / just innate natural intelligence, it can be de-motivating for boys like my son who are bright but still need to work at it.

I do think once you're on the treadmill of tutoring, it's very easy to get swept up with the stress of it all so if you do decide on the 11+ path, head over to the elevenplus website for local advice (they have regional forums) and try to keep it all low key.

@Africa2go yes same here, when I did my 11+ years ago, I passed but didn’t get Hugh enough marks to get into the grammar. I ended up in a grammar stream at a comprehensive though so it worked out well. We don’t have anything like that locally though. It’s grammar or comprehensives, we do have two grammars here so we will look at both. It could be we hate them and not even want to get in.

My DS is naturally bright but equally not everything comes naturally. As much as he is ahead for maths, confidence wise it takes a few goes to get it right so I know they’ll be an issue.

I will take a look - thank you!

Also be aware that if you have a bright child, there is something very different between preparing them for the exam and extensive tutoring.

A grammar school is a great place for a naturally bright child as they are in an environment suitable for them. Children who scrape in after being heavily tutored can struggle a lot and need continued tutoring whilst at the school. It can be stressful, time consuming and really quite miserable.

I would say go to the open days and see if you like them. If you do then work on preparation. CGP do “how to” books for verbal and non verbal reasoning. You can do these for half an hour at a time, once or twice a week. Then work on exam technique (missing a question out and going back to it etc), and timing.

It’s a very scary place to be when everyone else is spending endless hours and £££ tutoring, but it’s what we did with my DD and she passed with flying colours. I knew then that a grammar would be the right place for her.

@TrooBloo what do you mean by 'the grammar starts GCSEs a year early'? Also DofE is fine if your DCs are keen on it, but I wouldn't consider a school insisting on it to be a plus – if the grammar school is implying that DofE is useful to put on a university application, they are mistaken, I'm afraid.

I live in a grammar school town and my children all went to the G schools . Lots of children there who even live in a different county and many do not live in our actual town .

I'd suggest finding a tutor with experience of tutoring children to get into the grammar school you are interested in and ask for an assessment. It doesn't commit you either way but it will give you more information to make a decision.

It may be that that sort of tutor is hard to come by and they are fully booked. That's often the way with tutors who are good but it's not impossible. Keep searching.

On the grammar school website there should be information about the kind of tests they use for the exam.

The reason everyone in your town scorns the grammar school is because they have no aspiration or hope sadly and without tutoring, no one would get in and they talk it down so as to put other people off from even trying. Just because they think like this, doesn't mean to say you do. I would suggest keeping it quiet and not tell a soul if you decide to proceed.

Even if you're not going to go down the grammar route, I'd suggest light tutoring would be very beneficial at this age, especially after all the missed lessons during covid.

Tutoring can be fun and can open your mind and give you confidence in all your subjects.

Kids have no idea about what they want because they can't visualise themselves in places they've never seen before. That's why it's important to go and visit the schools and get a feel for them and talk to the children and teachers there. Take your DS.

You mention two local comprehensives, the closest of which is not good. How likely is it that your DS would get a place at the slightly further away ‘good’ comprehensive? If you’re not confident he’d get a place in that school, and the closest school really is as awful as you say, then the 11 plus is pretty important.

I echo previous posters in saying that you and your DS need to visit the two comprehensives and the grammar. Hopefully, both comprehensives will be ok but the grammar will impress your DS even more! You’ll have something tangible to talk about, and your DS will start to be able to picture what he’s aiming for.

You say that 20% of kids get into the grammar. Is that 20% of those that apply, or 20% of all children? What percentage of kids apply? I wouldn’t automatically panic and assume your DS has only a 1 in 5 chance of a place: in our area cultural differences play a big part: some families/communities automatically enter all their children into grammars, sometimes without any preparation or awareness of their child’s abilities, yet other bright children are not entered because their families have never considered it.

Find out more about the format of the 11 plus test in your area. It’s likely to be either CEM or GL, but you should be able to find a website containing more information and familiarisation materials. Unless there is a written element, it is not necessary to get a tutor, even in areas with ‘super-selective’ grammars. The written element is looking for specific things and I gather that a tutor that is well versed in what is required can make a big difference, but most of the tests are computer marked, and mostly multiple choice, with a bit of maths where you have to input the answer as a number. So the answers are either right or wrong. A bit of practice with workbooks for a few months leading up to the test is likely to be sufficient if your child is bright and motivated. It’s a good idea for your DS to sit a mock exam a few weeks before the real test, to get your DS used to the exam conditions, format of papers, timings etc.

Of course, if you think your DS will try harder with a tutor, and you can afford it, go for it, but don’t assume it’s the only way. My DD was quite happy doing 20 minutes of workbooks three times per week before school, but she was motivated and happy to accept advice from us. I would say that the whole process gave her confidence, so nothing would have been lost had she not passed.

Thank you everyone, this is very helpful.

We are catchment for both local comprehensives although in a different town to the one further away which is more desirable. Everybody locally goes to the one in this town without even considering the other to be honest!

The test does contain written elements @LetItGoToRuin and thankfully I have got a tutor who is meeting my DS next month for an assessment and we are going from there.

I completely agree @BookwormButNoTime, there is no way I want him struggling his entire school career. Light tutoring only or it’s just not happening, nobody wants to be miserable at school because their parents tutored them to death!

@thing47 I thought it was quite positive because it allows them to be more rounded and not entirely academically focussed. I felt it meant the school were also interested in outside of the national curriculum.

The grammar school starts gcse learning in year 9 so they have 3 years before sitting the tests.

I think starting GCSEs early is odd for grammar children. It’s a 2 year course and near me it’s mostly the secondary moderns that do this. It also cuts down breadth of learning. I thought ofsted didn’t like 3 year GCSEs. It bumps up results but there’s a cost to that.

It's not unusual in some private schools I know in London to use 3 years to study the curriculum for GCSE, instead of 2. I wouldn't be put off by that.

I'm slightly worried myself that year 9 could be a waste for my DD when she gets there as it's just more of the same at the moment. Using more time to get familiar with the tricky questions style of some of the subjects at GCSE seems sensible to me. And if they get good results, who would question that method?

@TizerorFizz well they’re ofsted outstanding so I don’t know, but it doesn’t seem so!

I read up about this as my DS's grammar school starts KS4 in year 9. They call it GCSE plus and cover more than the curriculum, adding breadth in other schools ways, and it enables them to have smaller class sizes. The downside of course is dropping subjects a year earlier. Ofsted like it only if the school does it well and it's the right thing for the cohort.

educationinspection.blog.gov.uk/2020/01/09/making-curriculum-decisions-in-the-best-interests-of-children/

OP I agree you need to calculate the pros and cons for your child. One very important issue I think is that parents decide the best school for their child not the 10/11 yo. They are not mature enough to weigh up pros and cons and are always overly influenced by where their friends are going.

@BumbledBee this is very helpful, thank you!

@helpmum2003 this is my thinking too, but everyone i speak to has asked what he wants to do! Obviously he doesn’t want to do extra work and a test and go to a school different to his current friends. It doesn’t matter how much you tell then they’ll make new friends, everyone always does, it doesn’t reassure them at this age.