Oxbridge Percentage

[pkim123]

Question, so many of the top independent schools in London like to shout about the percentage of students that receive Oxbridge offers. However, is simply saying that 15%, 20%, 25%, 45% receive offers really the whole story? Have you ever looked at the actual courses that the students are studying? Let me be clear, I'm not saying that only STEM is important. But is for example studying Theology at Oxbridge the same as studying Law, English, Maths or Physics? I also wonder if these schools in an effort to increase their Oxbridge % encourage their students to apply for higher acceptance rate subjects. Thoughts most welcome.

Both my DCs applied to Cambridge from private schools. Neither of them was put under pressure to apply for a specific course. I only know of one person who applied for Anglo Saxon and Nordic studies, which is the easiest to get into, but it wasn’t at the school’s suggestion.

@jeanne16

Both my DCs applied to Cambridge from private schools. Neither of them was put under pressure to apply for a specific course. I only know of one person who applied for Anglo Saxon and Nordic studies, which is the easiest to get into, but it wasn’t at the school’s suggestion.

Thanks for sharing, very nice to hear the schools let the students decide on courses. Brilliant.

Girls are definitely left to make their own choice of subjects at our school too. For A level there is strong encouragement to do the subjects you love and are good at, rather than the subjects you think you “should”, but it goes no further than that.

Leaver destinations published on the website include the university course, so it is all very transparent. My recent research into sixth form for a younger DC suggests many other top schools publish information on their websites in the same level of detail, so you can draw your own conclusions.

I don’t think there would be any point applying for something you don’t actually want to do

Not sure how you would motivate yourself through the interviews / tests if you aren’t that bothered for a theoretical chance of an “easier” ratio

I know some people do change course once they get there but I don’t think it’s guaranteed

This doesn’t just apply to easier subjects, but easier colleges. I remember doing an open day visit with my school. I said I thought one of the women’s colleges was rather nice, and my school latched onto that and gave me a lot of pressure to apply to that one. In the end I got into a much more competitive college but my school was quite unhappy when I applied because obviously it was a riskier move.

Applying to so-called easier Colleges no longer works. Cambridge release all the stats re. applications so you can research any of it online. The less popular colleges take most of their intake from the pool rather than from the applicants who apply directly to them.

My dc are at a top independent in London. There is absolutely no pressure to apply for certain courses - pupils are free to make their own choices. They all know that it is easier (in terms of number of applicants per place - I'm not making in my any judgment about the calibre of the applicants ) to get in for classics/theology/Nordic studies etc - there is no secret in that as it is clearly demonstrated on the Oxbridge websites. Some are very keen to go to Oxbridge whatever the subject....and so their choice might well be swayed by that....but there is no pressure from the school.

Why isn't studying Theology at Oxford the same as studying Law, etc? Genuinely asking.

@housewins

Why isn't studying Theology at Oxford the same as studying Law, etc? Genuinely asking.

TBH, I'm beginning to regret I ever started this post. I sincerely apologise to anyone I may have offended. I'm genuinely very sorry.

@housewins

Why isn't studying Theology at Oxford the same as studying Law, etc? Genuinely asking.

In terms of grades needed? I’d imagine it’s down to the number of applicants.

I have a family member who did theology at Oxbridge. She was encouraged by her expensive private school to do a course she would love ... rather than one that she liked a little less but which might also be useful for getting a well paid job in a 21st century economy with massive skills shortgages. She isn't from a wealthy family - she was on a full scholarship - so I do think her choice was naive. She is now teaching, having been turned down by the law firms she applied to.

Just to add ... I think charismatic school teachers love to enthuse students about their own subjects and encourage them to follow in their footsteps by doing the same degree..But that's not always in the students' best interests. My neice was almost persuaded by her adored English Literature teacher to do an English degree, rather than the medical degree she had been aiming for. Thankfully she had a reality check before submitting the UCAS form and hasn't looked back.

@meedle a theology degree from Oxbridge would be fine for law. I suspect there were other ways she didn’t fit the bill for law…

I think that private schools are more likely to know that the lesser known subjects exist.

Don't regret it. I'm glad you asked the question and it was interesting reading the replies. I was genuinely interested! And, it's made me question my thinking.

[quote Boombastic22]@meedle a theology degree from Oxbridge would be fine for law. I suspect there were other ways she didn’t fit the bill for law…[/quote]
Yes, of course - like not having a family or social network that included lawyers for example, and not having the luxury of time to keep on applying rather than cut her losses, because she needed to earn some money.

@meedle

I have a family member who did theology at Oxbridge. She was encouraged by her expensive private school to do a course she would love ... rather than one that she liked a little less but which might also be useful for getting a well paid job in a 21st century economy with massive skills shortgages. She isn't from a wealthy family - she was on a full scholarship - so I do think her choice was naive. She is now teaching, having been turned down by the law firms she applied to.

"rather than one that she liked a little less but which might also be useful for getting a well paid job in a 21st century economy with massive skills shortgages."

Because going to university is all about getting a well paid job.... I'll have to tell my nephew who has a first class degree from Cambridge and a masters and now works in conservation , trying to save the planet for our children and earns a pittance.

In my day going to university was about love of learning ....How times have changed.

Yes, there are certainly at least some private schools who are fixated on their number of Oxbridge offers as a key selling point to an extent that they offer a degree of support for Oxbridge applications in softer subjects which represents questionable value for fee payers' money. Though of course the schools can't 'force' the kids themselves to apply for anything.

@puffyisgood

Yes, there are certainly at least some private schools who are fixated on their number of Oxbridge offers as a key selling point to an extent that they offer a degree of support for Oxbridge applications in softer subjects which represents questionable value for fee payers' money. Though of course the schools can't 'force' the kids themselves to apply for anything.

represents questionable value for fee payers' money.

This country obsession that university must have value like a commodity has left our academic staff constantly striking, academics leaving in droves and huge loans to even study at Uni.

Meanwhile the elite US universities like Harvard, offer aid to cover all fees and living costs to the needy students, we have nothing like that here. Many of the top EU universities don't even have fees (even for international students) and provide heavily reduced rents , token payments) and food for students, not like here...

It is quite difficult to unbundle this question.
The Arts, modern languages (much smaller class sizes/foreign school trips - much larger range of choice of languages) and Classics are typically better taught in top independent schools. Rich parents are more likely to encourage different types of degrees because there is not necessarily the urgency to earn quickly straight out of university/ability to live at home comfortably for longer/live in London etc/connections for work experience anyway.
Subjects like History are interesting too because several of my Asian friends would not like some of the pro Western bias of history courses… (obviously that is a huge subject in itself) and they appear to have a natural inclination to encourage Medicine, the Sciences, Computer Science and Law as degree subjects.
In my days, you could also quite easily change your subject once at Cambridge e.g. from Music to Law etc. (subject to spaces) Plenty of my friends did do that but it also included Medics changing to Natural Sciences and Natural Scientists changing to easier workload subject like Land Economy.
Therefore, I do not believe it is just the “schools” encouraging the phenomenon. It is multi faceted. You will find that a typical teacher at an independent school is just that, a teacher. And whatever bias may come from management/marketing of the independent school machine can be quite far removed from said teacher. So an inspirational Classics teacher will lead to more children willing to study Classics at university and how many children get the opportunity to learn Russians/Mandarin/Japanese etc in state schools

@namethattunein1 - I meant that it's questionable whether the resources that a few schools put in [interview practice, form filling, etc] to supporting Oxbridge applications in weaker subjects offers value for money to the payers of fees at those schools. I'm not questioning the government funding for [or existence of etc] those degree subjects.

@Mumoftwoinprimary

I think that private schools are more likely to know that the lesser known subjects exist.

I think this is a really good point. My DD is applying to university for a subject not taught at A level and doesn’t have a “champion” among the staff. So eg she had to write an extended essay as part of the application, but there was no one at school who she could really ask exactly what was expected of her. I think some schools are better set up than others to suggest, explore and support applications for “not-taught- so far” degrees, and it needs staff who are looking beyond their actual subject. Certainly in my day if you were good at eg History, the History teacher would really encourage you to apply for History. If they could get a student into Oxbridge, or better still a succession of them, that was a real filip for them and the reputation of their department. I don’t think they saw it as part of their remit to say “but if you are good at History, have you considered Law”.

I think the overarching trend is that of pressure on Oxbridge intake from private school and the direct consequence is that the successful private school candidates need to shine ever brighter with verifiable passion for the subject. This requires a lot of drive and hard work beyond perfect grades and, at a high level, is not something that can be achieved (likely the opposite) by a school guiding students to certain subjects.

I work at Cambridge and have both a degree and PhD and have taught at Universities.

Why would anyone want to go to do a degree that they have no interest or passion for just to say “I’m at Oxford”. It makes no sense. Please do not encourage your kids to do this. The world is changing. Having a passion and being entrepreneurial is much more important. I know people who have graduated with a law degree who earn £16,000 a year. I’ve taught people on science degrees who hate science and only did it because their parents wanted them to do it. Please stop. I’m all these cases these people graduated with average degree marks, little interest in the subject and went on to pursue careers in totally different areas. Your child might be passionate about sport for example. What then is the point of them doing theology at Oxford? They might be best to do a physiotherapy degree. Specialist physios can run their own business, work anywhere, set their own hours and earn extremely well. There are many options in life beyond the “classics”

[quote puffyisgood]@namethattunein1 - I meant that it's questionable whether the resources that a few schools put in [interview practice, form filling, etc] to supporting Oxbridge applications in weaker subjects offers value for money to the payers of fees at those schools. I'm not questioning the government funding for [or existence of etc] those degree subjects.[/quote]
As long as those 'softer' subjects are the ones the students want, what does it matter.

As another poster said, I doubt if the marketing and rep of the school drives the teaching at an average private school amongst the teachers. Many of them seem motivated by engaging minds, not cranking up numbers for the brochure for prospective parents, I'm sure the heads and trust and marketing people do, but I can't really see it in teachers.

The 'softer' subjects naturally attract students who are from wealthy backgrounds, who have no real pressure of student debt, or show their parents value for money. It's a cliche, but its been this way in the arts and performance for a good while now.