Which language would you choose?

[Stokey]

It's pretty early but DD1 in Y7 has to choose which language to do as a second language in Y8. In Y7 the year is split into two streams doing French or German. Dd1 is in the German stream. In Y8 they can choose a second language from whichever one they didn't do, Russian or Latin.

Dd1 is keen on Latin, but it would mean she'd have to do German GCSE as she has to do a MFL. The school doesn't offer Latin A level which I feel is a bit limiting as she wouldn't be able to follow through on one of her A levels subjects, although could leave for 6th form.

She's not keen on Russian. I think French probably makes more sense but she likes ancient history and would have liked to learn Spanish, which isn't an option.

Would you choose a subject for GCSE that you knew you couldn't do for A level?

The school is giving poor choices as Latin goes with french, Italian or Spanish not German. They should also not be randomly allocating students to french or German at the start as many students are missing out on the option of learning french. If your daughter can do French and German I would encourage her to do that. If she were in the set doing french french and Latin would have been worth considering

This whole question about 'useful' subjects is one of my bugbears. The fact is, the vast majority of us don't 'use' the vast majority of the content we learn at school. Of course there are exceptions, like doctors or teachers, who use quite a lot of at least oneor two of their subjects. But how many of us actually ever 'use' what we learned about obtuse angles or the reign of Henry VIII or the use of pathetic fallacy in Wuthering Heights, except in the odd pub quiz, or when we're helping our own children with their homework? Even languages - yes, some people will travel or work extensively in another country later on (although they probably don't know which one, when they're choosing their GCSE options), but even on a foreign holiday most of us don't use much more French than we could pick up in a few weeks on DuoLingo. I worked in finance for a few years, and I never needed anything beyond Year 6 maths.

What we do 'use' later is the skills we develop from learning those subjects - how to think, how to analyse, how to write, how to retain knowledge, how to explain, how to reflect, how to deconstruct a language, etc. Ultimately, in most cases, it doesn't matter which specific subjects we choose, as long as we study a range of different subject types (maths, languages, humanities, sciences, arts), because different types of subject teach different types of skill. It's much better to go for the subjects you're interested in, so that you enjoy studying them and are more likely to develop your skills to a higher degree. So there's nothing 'useless' about Latin or Russian, if students are interested in them, because they're teaching skills just as effectively as other subjects.

Sorry, rant over. (NB if you're looking for 'usefulness', IME there's nothing like Latin for improving your English grammar and spelling.)

When I was at school we were randomly allocated either French or Spanish (and a small, select group of students could study Latin), so these languages look amazing to me, I would have loved these options at age 12! I think it's great the school has the resources to teach a Romance language, a Germanic language, a Slavic language and a Classical language.

@paupatrol
Well said! My DD has a degree in French and Italian. She’s bright and she’s now a barrister. She speaks French and Italian but never uses these at work. What she does use is intellect, research ability and confidence! The languages helped with all of that. Languages are so much more then being useful!

Sorry: they should say: studying languages is so much more than them being merely useful as languages.

This should be entirely your daughters choice. What we and you think is irrelevant.

How is she getting on with German? If she's struggling AND school insist on a MFL (or you insist on her doing one) then French becomes more important as a back up.

However if she likes German and has aptitude for it, there's not much point in having a back up MFL choice for GCSE. She will probably go with German as she's studied it for longer anyway, and she'll be ok. Let her do Latin for fun.

Alternatively if she adores German and a MFL route really appeals, then French and German would be a really solid start. She could pick up Latin later - it's much easier to self study Latin because there's no listening or pronunciation.

Some (many?) schools push or insist on a MFL GCSE, not least because of the Ebacc. Ours does too, but in practice it makes them quite easy to drop, because they don't suit everyone. So a MFL requirement may not be that much of a big deal, and Latin seems a good alternative. She's not going to be denied a university place in English or Medicine if she has Latin instead of a MFL.

No. But for linguists 2 x MFL at gcse is a real bonus. So many schools ignore MFL and restrict learning to one. They never do that for sciences. So if dc has an aptitude I think schools should support them. These dc are as rare as hens teeth though. Everyone tells about dropping MFL. Never about doing more of them!

@trumpisagit

This should be entirely your daughters choice. What we and you think is irrelevant.

Absolutely it's her decision. But it's still a parent's job to help her flesh out the pros and cons.

@myrtilles yes I feel her half of the year missed out a bit by getting German instead of French. French & Latin would have been a perfect combination.

@TizerorFizz she's only done 1 term so no sign of a particular aptitude thus far. I think that also makes it hard as they have to choose so early. She did a bit of French at primary and didn't seem to like that especially either though!

The school does insist on 1 MFL at GCSE. And I am grateful they get to do two languages. I'll see how she goes with the taster lessons. Thanks for all the input.

@Stokey
My DDs also had to choose a second language in y7. DD1 had never done a MFL before secondary. The only one at her private school apparently! However she quite liked what she had done in y7. By Y8 her French teacher said she was a linguist. News to us obviously but he was right. I assume she can drop the second language after y9. Just get her to try the taster lessons and see what she thinks.

Definitely try the taster sessions but ultimately go with what she likes.

But I take exception to anyone saying Russian isn’t useful! Apart from the fact that it can open many doors historically and culturally (and would be a real asset to, say, a history undergraduate), it’s a language of interest to employers. But if she doesn’t want to do it, she doesn’t want to do it and it’s not a language you can do half-heartedly.

@MyCatHatesPCRTests
I think all languages are useful. Sadly people think a language is only about speaking it. Russian therefore is seen as limiting. However there’s a whole more to studying Russian than merely speaking it. The window opens to Russian culture, art, literature and so much more. We, in this country, are poor at recognising how important languages and culture are in understanding the rest of the world. We look at a very narrow aspect of learning a language and mostly think we don’t need to bother.

By the way, anyone who successfully learns Russian from scratch is pretty bright!

Latin would help her to learn many European languages in the future.
Russian has the added problem of the alphabet.
Russian would help to study ancient civilisations across Asia that have not been translated yet. There must also be heaps of stuff in Russian about the Vikings. Not Ancient I know but not fully researched and translated yet I think.

Latin would also give her a great view into the lives of people who spoke Latin, wrote in Latin and whose history is of great interest. Russian as a route to studying ancient civilisations whose language we don’t yet understand though is a bit of a stretch for choosing a gcse! Or indeed for anyone not Russian I suspect.

I studied languages at university, and while I enjoyed Russian to some extent (especially studying the history, not so much the literature) but it was difficult and I've barely used it since. If I had to go back and do it all again, I'd pick Spanish instead.

French and Latin would be the best of your DD's options but it sounds as if she can't do both? In which case, whichever she prefers. French is likely to be used on school trips and holidays, so that can be motivating. Latin would be useful if she wanted to learn Spanish or Italian later.

Russian is hard. I'd advise against it unless she really wants to do it.

@MyCatHatesPCRTests

Definitely try the taster sessions but ultimately go with what she likes.

But I take exception to anyone saying Russian isn’t useful! Apart from the fact that it can open many doors historically and culturally (and would be a real asset to, say, a history undergraduate), it’s a language of interest to employers. But if she doesn’t want to do it, she doesn’t want to do it and it’s not a language you can do half-heartedly.

I agree.

There's so much more to MFL than Romance languages (not that there's anything wrong with those!).

I think she should follow her heart. She's only 12!. Do something that motivates her.
I'd not be looking too far ahead and analysing the pros and cons to such an extent.

OP as I understand it, she could pick French now (so really not at any disadvantage, and that's assuming that French is for some reason better - while in fact German is more in demand by industry).

Anyway - what a great thing to be able to study two languages and also great to be offered Russian and Latin! I wouldn't worry about the Latin A level aspect at this stage - the school may start to offer it, for example, or she could move for sixth form.

I would let her choose what she thinks will be good fun. Speaking as a lingust, I found connections for sure between Latin and French/Spanish; but I also found connections between German and French, in the way that I was learning the language (how the perfect tense is made, for example, is similar in both).

French and German might be more mainstream; but German and Latin would be great too.

Great post from @paupatrol. My learning at school has helped me throughout my life, tho apart from when I taught MFL, it is only in my current new role (and in my 50s) that I have actually started to use languages in my work directly. But all learning is valuable.

Latin & German go well together due to the grammar. (I did French, German, Latin & French A/O). Learning 3 languages as a teen means whenever I want to pick up enough of a new language to get by I can pretty easily.

I don’t really see the need to only learn a language because you can use it directly in your job. Anyone who has a degree in Russian has talent. Use that as a huge positive. My DD doesn’t use her languages at work but she never regrets learning them. She’s been educated in two areas: MFL and law. That’s good as far as I can see. Other friends of hers are in exactly the same position. They have MFL at degree level but used it to gain access to other careers.

It wouldn’t occur to me to attempt to influence my child’s choice here: they’re all interesting subjects, all useful, all exciting, all academic. It’s not as if she’s choosing between French, German, shooting up in the corridor and skiving/shoplifting.

What @BurbageBrook says!

@Bwix

That’s not very helpful is it? Most parents discuss such choices with their DC. I did when mine had a choice of second MFL in Y8. It’s perfectly reasonable. It’s not influencing them: it’s having a discussion about the options and where they might lead,