Anybody know how large the cohort of native speakers is for A level French?

[Naem]

I have been reading on mumsnet that a very large number of those who do MFL for A level are native speakers who then tend to take the top grades.

Does anybody have access to any statistics as to the numbers - specifically for French, which is what interests my DD.

My DD enjoys French the most of all of her GCSE subjects, and wants to take it for A level, but she is not a native speaker - she learnt what she knows in school. Barely been to France (I have been wanting to take her, but pandemics rather make it difficult). I think we took her once when she was about four years old, and once when she was about 12 for holidays.

Guess I want to understand how much of a risky choice this really is (although her heart is set on it).

There's a [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/610050/Native_speakers_in_A_level_modern_foreign_languages.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjhn6bo4vr0AhUMYcAKHZKVD7QQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3W5zhk6MKicF_D4Wa4qurE government report on native speakers in A-level languages]] here, from 2017. Hope it helps.

Sorry, link went wrong! Government report on native speakers in A level languages

There are far more top grades in languages than other subjects, so that it isn't a case of all the top grades being taken by the bilingual kids.

DD is also planning on taking French with hardly any time in France. She had a day trip to France in year 7 (when she spoke two words of French) and a rather more useful 3 day trip squeezed between Storm Ciara and Storm Dennis in Feb 2020 - she was lucky to get that one! Hopefully we might manage to spend some time there before she actually takes the A-level!

Are her school positive about her doing it? We're trusting the teacher's recommendation that she's up to it.

Can’t help with numbers. Can tell you that I did A level French and got a grade A though admittedly was a long time ago. I had grade A at GCSE, then during A levels spent time abroad on an exchange programme. I also worked on a cross channel ferry in the holidays where staff were both French and English. It’s definitely achievable if your DD is keen and prepared to work. I went on to study at uni in France and I now work for a French bank. No one in my family spoke a word of any language other than English.

My son did a level French. None of us speak French , he's only been to france a few times etc
He got an A and is now studying French and Spanish at uni.

I'm from a small rural town, had some school trips abroad and decided to study French and German at uni. First couple of years were hard, but then my third year was spent abroad and I soaked it all in like a sponge and by the time I went back to uni to finish my degree I was truly nailing it. When joining the world of work being fluent in two languages but a native English speaker has been an absolute superpower and I earn mega bucks now...

I silently laugh when I hear all the noise about getting more women and girls into STEM subjects...ok but what about getting more Brits in general into foreign languages...

Yes there were some French people and some dual citizens or kids who went every year skiing and Provence-ing etc but you have to befriend and learn from them...easier said than done at that age, I know...

Learning MFL trains your brain to listen and process language in such a rigorous way - it has paid off dividends in my case and even though it was tough going in the beginning I would still say "go for it"...there are some brilliant tik tokers who can teach you how to speak street French...massive advantage over our generation in the 90s...

I lived with a girl at uni who was born in the UK but from the age of two lived in Belgium and was fluent in French, Flemish and English, she came back to the UK and did a French degree, I didn't really get it. She didn't even get a first

@Cornucopia55 very interesting. Lots of issues with the data but it would seem that while the effect is real, it is not a huge cohort of native speakers - at least giving non-native speakers a chance. And the native speaker cohort is a fair bit lower for French than for German or Spanish.

Oh and I did German A, level neither of my parents speak any other languages and I hadn't even been to Germany until my second A level year, I got an A which was the highest grade at the time

do Universities notice whether it’s a native speaker who has taken the A Level, and adjust offers accordingly?

Whilst achievement and standards should be recognised, wouldn’t it be better if there were separate syllabuses for native speakers?

It strikes me that recent large decline in uptake of MFL probably means the number of native speakers taking the exams is higher than in previous cohorts.

If your daughter wants to do it she should go for it. It’s a solid academic qualification which would get her to a good level in the language, so quite apart from top grades it’s valuable.

No idea what language A’ levels are like now, but what held me back from getting a better grade @ 20 years ago wasn’t not being a native speaker, but not being confident in speaking and being lazy in learning enough vocabulary.

Like a previous poster, I do find native speakers taking a course in French, Spanish or whatever as a foreign language a bit of a joke. Where’s the achievement?

Please encourage her to do it, it’s a fantastic subject.

If you send her on a residential language course for a week or two she will have a fantastic time and get great grades. Language schools have a youth hostel atmosphere.

Also - at uni it’s really 70% literature / culture with the language only being a small part.

So native speakers are lazy, but it’s not quite a free pass for them.

@TheAntiGardener

If your daughter wants to do it she should go for it. It’s a solid academic qualification which would get her to a good level in the language, so quite apart from top grades it’s valuable.

No idea what language A’ levels are like now, but what held me back from getting a better grade @ 20 years ago wasn’t not being a native speaker, but not being confident in speaking and being lazy in learning enough vocabulary.

Like a previous poster, I do find native speakers taking a course in French, Spanish or whatever as a foreign language a bit of a joke. Where’s the achievement?

My experience of teaching native speakers both GCSE and A level MFL is that they don't always do as well as non-natives. This is because they sometimes struggle with their spelling and grammar in their native tongue. At A level they need to take an interest in the topics studied and literature. Sometimes native speakers don't put enough effort into finding out about the subject areas and try to wing it in the speaking test. This rarely works! I had native speakers on my degree and one in particular was awful; he never turned up for lectures and tutorials and when he did he was told off by the tutor for lack of effort - he was so arrogant! He sounded amazing but never went into any depth.

Encourage her to study languages. I am a linguist and have had an amazing career, full of travel and adventure. It always makes me smile when I hear people saying "no point learning other languages, everyone speaks English don't they?". They don't know what they're missing....😍😍

My DS is taking A level French, and anecdotally sees quite a few who are French mother tongue at various schools. They are a bit in awe of him doing French. The main issue we had was getting any commitment from school that they would run the course. Numbers at many of the local schools have been around the 2-3 mark in recent years.

Mu DS did A level French and got an A*! He had only had a school trip to France but kept in touch with someone he met there which helped.

If your daughter does decide to do A level PM me and I will see what resources we have. I know he made LOADS of flashcards etc.

@savagebaggagemaster - that is interesting. I must admit that my own experience of this with a near-native speaker in my A level class was that he was pretty lazy and didn't do spectacularly. However, while he might not have troubled the top students in terms of competing for A grades, he did still get a grade that wasn't commensurate with his learning or effort!

The system was fairer at uni, where I did another language ab initio. Absolutely no native or advanced speakers in the beginners classes. Anyone with prior knowledge of the language did a placement test, meaning they skipped years of the core language classes or didn't take them at all.

My DD is doing two MFL A levels, and currently predicted A* grades in each. She has pretty much learnt everything from school - and doing things like watching films and tv, listening to music and some reading in the relevant languages. The group of pupils doing language A levels is relatively small compared with other subjects, but most of her classmates are definitely not native speakers of the languages.

@Mojoj, would be interesting to hear what you have done career wise. DD will be studying languages at uni, but doesn’t yet have much idea what she’ll do after job wise.

@MFLMum2021, the DD of a friend took Spanish and history with year abroad at a good university and got an internship at a City bank. Now flying high as an analyst.

OP maybe I’m being naive, but why would there be a quota for top grades? Or do you mean that the standard for A* grade might be set higher if there are native speakers?

I think you are worrying unnecessarily. The fact that some of the children hear their parents language at home does not mean the parents had the time to regularly sit with them to teach them how to write it or how to read it properly.

It also depends on the teacher, some are good and some are not. Some are really really bad, so even speaking French at home some kids do not have a chance in hell to get a good grade unless their parents are prepared to do the work the teacher should be doing.

@MFLMum2021 I have worked in a number of jobs over the years including international student recruitment, EU postings in Brussels, tourism and PR. In all of my jobs, being able to speak two languages in addition to English definitely made me a more attractive proposition. There's a world of opportunity out there. Good luck to your daughter!

@user1471519931

I'm from a small rural town, had some school trips abroad and decided to study French and German at uni. First couple of years were hard, but then my third year was spent abroad and I soaked it all in like a sponge and by the time I went back to uni to finish my degree I was truly nailing it. When joining the world of work being fluent in two languages but a native English speaker has been an absolute superpower and I earn mega bucks now...

I silently laugh when I hear all the noise about getting more women and girls into STEM subjects...ok but what about getting more Brits in general into foreign languages...

Yes there were some French people and some dual citizens or kids who went every year skiing and Provence-ing etc but you have to befriend and learn from them...easier said than done at that age, I know...

Learning MFL trains your brain to listen and process language in such a rigorous way - it has paid off dividends in my case and even though it was tough going in the beginning I would still say "go for it"...there are some brilliant tik tokers who can teach you how to speak street French...massive advantage over our generation in the 90s...

Would you mind telling me what sort of thing you do for work please? I also have a degree in French and German but have struggled to find jobs which need those languages outside of teaching and translating.

@Igneo

do Universities notice whether it’s a native speaker who has taken the A Level, and adjust offers accordingly?

Whilst achievement and standards should be recognised, wouldn’t it be better if there were separate syllabuses for native speakers?

It strikes me that recent large decline in uptake of MFL probably means the number of native speakers taking the exams is higher than in previous cohorts.

Yes they do. It's not considered a real a level if it's their native language. (Though not sure how they can 100% tell)

@belimoo work for a large international organisation in the communications department. Something like UNESCO.