Boys - easier at 11 or 13 plus?

[stripymum]

At selective schools where boys can apply at 11+ or deferred entry for 13+, which do you think is likely to be easier to be successful in gaining a place?

Speak to the schools about the ratios. We were nudged towards deferred 13+ as the odds seemed slightly better. I don't know where you are or the schools you're looking at but in my experience none of it is "easy"

That's what I'm worried about. It seems the odds at hard at either entry. We're in SW London/Surrey.

@stripymum , it use to be easier at 11 as so many of the really bright ds opt for Tiffin and other grammars. It depends a bit on your prep and the relationship they have with the seniors schools. The secondaries like Hampton don't want preps like Kings House in Richmond to stop sending them super well rounded sporty ds at 13 so they will always keep spaces. Schools like KGS don't have much interest and co-eds are more complicated.

Ratios tend to be similar, with slightly better odds at 13 generally offset by a cohort that’s entirely from prep schools so v well prepped!

Also, the odds will mean different things to different people. If your cat scores are well suited to the school then you stand much better chance, if they’re not then you’ll find it v tough and should question what they might get out of being there. Cat scores available on atom

Those are all really helpful points. For a prep school boy with strong CATS going for the co eds (not KGS) might 11 plus be an easier entry point? The sheer numbers applying at both entry points are quite worrying.

Board at 13? That’s a lot easier!

There are fewer places at 13+ than at 11. Also, if he doesn’t get in at 11 you can always have another try at 13

@stripymum which schools are you considering? For the top schools (KCW, Hampton, St Paul’s etc) you need CATs of around 130 for a good shot. They might go a bit lower with really good extra curricular achievements or excellent results in the exams but not below 120 at a guess. Not sure which coeds you mean - the ones in Surrey are around 115 or so, so a bit easier. Does that fit your profile?

His CATS are 130. Trying for Hampton, St Johns and Epsom.

[quote SonicBroom]@stripymum which schools are you considering? For the top schools (KCW, Hampton, St Paul’s etc) you need CATs of around 130 for a good shot. They might go a bit lower with really good extra curricular achievements or excellent results in the exams but not below 120 at a guess. Not sure which coeds you mean - the ones in Surrey are around 115 or so, so a bit easier. Does that fit your profile?[/quote]
I'm really interested in this. We are North London. My son achieved 141 in three of the four CAT categories and 134 in the other. However I don't think he's excelling in written papers and I'm not sure how much weight is given to CATs over the actual exams. Any experience or observations?

@stripymum , you should be fine at 11. My ds went to a prep that finished at age 11 and got into all those schools a few years ago and is at Hampton. You have to go with what your prep advises too and some preps are against entry at age 11 and want your ds to stay until 13 but I'm sure you know that!

@LondonMummer if he got 141 in three papers then I he probably won’t even need to sit an exam, I know people who have been taken to boarding school on those sorts of grades and a reference alone… that’s amazing…. What has his school recommended?

I think the CATS make a big difference as do the references from the school. Overall though I think they’re looking for a well rounded individual who will fit in with the culture.

@stripymum with 130 he’d be in with a good shot at Hampton, even more so for Epsom and he’d be unusually bright in St John’s which is much more mixed. I know people who have gone there with around 110-115, so you need to think about the sort of learning environment you’d like him to be in as well. Does he like a challenge or prefer to sit comfortably at the top of the cohort without too much effort?

@LondonMummer obv don’t take my word on the not sitting exams… it’s not normal!! But not are those CAT scores. I guess you’re looking at St. Paul’s / Westminster / Eton too?

@cricketjoys85 how does he like Hampton?

Also @LondonMummer - combination of CATs + exams can tell you if a child may be highly prepped for exam but not necessarily with the natural ability, or vv has a bad day on the exam and hasn’t shown their full potential. Ideally their exam scores will be roughly similar band to cats, if not you maybe need to be asking questions of what the school are doing in respect of preparation

In terms of numbers applying don’t be put off. Remember some people are applying to 6 or 7 schools, most people gets the right place in the end

Thank you so much all for all the very helpful advice.

The teachers at secondary level are better IME and the curriculum more interesting than preparing for common entrance. I’d consider this when thinking about whether to move him at 11 in your shoes.

@maltravers that’s really interesting, do you have experience teaching that age? We have a DS doing exams next year and are torn

[quote SonicBroom]@LondonMummer obv don’t take my word on the not sitting exams… it’s not normal!! But not are those CAT scores. I guess you’re looking at St. Paul’s / Westminster / Eton too?[/quote]
Thank you. I do keep asking the school how he can be getting CAT scores like that and not getting over 80% in all the exam prep tests they've been doing. It does make me wonder whether they are really helping him meet his potential. He also scored much lower on the Atom ISEB mocks. But the CAT scores weren't a fluke as he's scored that two years in a row.

He is sitting a range of schools - Westminster and CLS at the top end and then some selective North London schools along with one that is much less selective. We'll see how he gets on.

@SonicBroom , good luck with your ds and the process.
My ds loves Hampton and has been there a few years, some observations are:
The ds are all rounders - as good at maths as English.
The few who seem a bit weaker academically are generally very good at sport.
You couldn't tell who came from a prep at age 11 and who came from a primary school. (The interview process weeds out any prep school arrogance).

The ds who joined at age 13 also slotted in straight away although were thought to have good Latin and places in the cricket teams. (1 local boys prep sent 12 x ds to Hampton at age 13, they were spread across the classes).

It's a very grounded down to earth school with many local ds and others travelling from Ascot, Leathehead, Chiswick etc. Many at age 11 also had offers from Tiffin, KCS, RGS, KGS, Sutton grammars etc.

Amazing thank you @cricketjoys85! Which boys prep did that btw…?? Not Hampton prep?

@SonicBroom no, I’m not a teacher but I have two boys, one went at 10 to his secondary school (they have a 10+ intake), the other at 13 after CE. The teaching seemed better and the curriculum more interesting at the Secondary compared to the Prep, plus it was easier for the boy who moved early to make friends when everyone was still new. I would not underestimate the pressure of common entrance either. I know the system is fast evolving, but having to come up with the goods at 11 (iseb) and then again at 13 (CE) was a lot of unnecessary pressure in my view. It’s different I suppose if you’re targeting schools who only start at 13. Good luck to your boy.

Thank you - we are totally in line with your thinking.