Does anyone have recent and close experience of 14-19 education in both Germany and the UK?

[roisin]

We have friends in Germany who are thinking about moving back to the UK, after living in Germany for 11 years. (Mum is English Dad is German. The children are bilingual.)

Ds is 16 - i.e. yr10 in German system; yr11 in English system.
Dd is 14 - yr 8 in Germany, yr9 here.
Both at Gymnasium.

Would ds be likely to cope OK going straight into 6th form and doing A levels?
Would a sixth form college by happy to admit him with German (lack of) qualifications?
Or should he do some GCSEs for the first year in the UK?

I talked to someone a while ago whose older dd had come to England from Germany for the sixth form (boarding) then later the family moved over here and the younger dd joined year 10. Unfortunately I don't know what year in germany they had come from, so can't really answer your question, though I do know they both did/are doing well - the younger one was skipped to year 11 after one term as she was so far ahead (I think they are a very bright family).

I do remember that when the older girl tried to apply to German universities to do a degree back in Germany, she found none of them would accept A levels so she had to stay in England. Whether that's course dependent I don't know.

Thanks Snorkle. That is very interesting about the return to Germany angle - I will pass that on.

No idea about the German system, but one thing you can do is look up course specifications on the various exam board websites. If you look up the GCSE ones, you'll get an idea of whether you DS is in sync with them. The A-level ones will also tell you what he would have in store - A-level courses starting in 2008 are being completely overhauled, btw.

Some British sixth-forms are now offering the International Baccalaureate: do his German qualifications give him entry to this? It would also resolve the return-to-Germany question.

If they have any sense, they stay put in Germany. I am German and know both systems, having a daughter in secondary school here plus teaching myself. The kids won't get half the education they get here if the leave Germany.This is especially true for languages. Sad fact, but true. If they want their kids to have a good education, stay in Germany.

This is far too late in the day to change children from one educational system to another.

I changed system at nearly 13 and it was difficult. I was the last child in my class to make it through without repeating a year ie all those that arrived after me had to repeat at least year (or failed to complete their education).

So Calamari, that would be why a large proportion of the affluent upper-middle class Germans in our extended family and friends are shelling out a fortune to send their kids to British boarding schools for the 6th form, would it?

roisin there are very complicated issues regarding the acceptability of UK qualifications for German university entrance. These rules change according to the nationality of the applicant, ie. qualifications that may be acceptable for a UK-national would not be acceptable for a German national. Dual nationality means squat-all dual nationals are treated as German for the purposes of German bureaucracy.

I fell foul of these rules myself as a British-educated UK-resident who happened to have a German passport as well as a Uk one. It's a minefield, so they need to go armed.

Can I just back up what Frogs says. DS2 attends an independent sixth form college with a sizable number of German students boarding there. They are following AS/A2 courses rather than IB.

Can also report anecdotal evidence of English & increasingly Irish schools being the choice of many wealthy German parents for 6th form. There's not as much private choice here or choice per se.

I changed from the German system to the English one at 17 (I am 31 now though so it's all a bit outdated ) - I went from a German Gymnasium to a private boarding school for A levels and coped fine, although I am not sure how it would work nowadays with the drive for everyone to gets an A at A level, and all the AS level stuff etc.

One caveat to mention is that my lack of GCSEs has been a real problem on a few occasions, nobody gave a monkey's about what I had done in Germany and I eventually ended up sitting GCSE equivalency exams for English and maths a couple of years ago just to get that out of the way. There are several careers that aren't open to you if you don't have bog-standard GCSEs (e.g. teaching, civil service etc.).

I have considered this issue with my children and have pretty much decided that we will only send them to a secondary school that offers the international baccalaureate, because having a mixed education really seems to cause a lot of confusion at times.

I'm sure it depends what you want for your children. I used to work (about 10 years ago) for a German family who were thinking of sending their dd to an English boarding school. The reason was that they believed English education was more individualised and allowed more creativity.
OTOH if you were worried about the lack of content in A Levels (esp scientific or langugages) what Calamari says would make more sense.

Yes, I would second what Geekgirl says about lack of GCSEs (or, as in my case, lack of O-levels).

I went to boarding school because a)I had fallen out with my parents/they didn't like my friends and b) because I was on course to fail chemistry and maths that year and would have had to repeat everything, despite getting 1 & 2s all the other subjects.

One of the reason that many people from several European countries board in England for the sixth form is that it is becoming incredibly more difficult to get a place in an English University with a foreign diploma, despite the fact that often they get a wider education in German (or other countries) secondary schools.

I think it would depend too on what type of school they have been attending in Germany. You say they are both at Gymnasium. If they are attending a bilingual English-German Gymnasium, yes I would consider the move. They might need some tutoring in some of the subjects initially since the approach will be very different.

If they moved to the UK, would there be a German school nearby so they could do Abitur (university entrance exam) there if they were finding the British system difficult to adjust to?

just qualifying that by saying I don't have recent/close experience of secondary education in either system - my dd is in primary in Germany

Ooh thank you all - I'd missed all the traffic today.

This is very interesting and helpful.

Their gymnasium is not bilingual - just standard, but they do a lot of languages including English and Latin. But the children/family are bilingual.

Frogs - or anyone else who knows well - is it appropriate to transfer from yr10 in Gymnasium straight into 6th form in UK? Or will that be a tall order, and they should they try and arrange a catch-up/acclimatise year for ds?

I transfered from yr10 Germany (with my mittlere Reife) into S5 in Scotland to do Highers and went to Uni in England 12 months later. All the Admissions people I saw remembered who I was as I had unusual qualifications. But I am in my 30s now and maybe it is more common to swap systems these days?
BTW, not having GCSE's has never been a problem for me - and I am a teacher.
While teaching in Suffolk five years ago I had a German student in my A-Level class and she was struggling. I think it depends so much on family support and how bright and motivated the kids are.

Roisin,

I think it's important to transfer at the start of a course, eg into Y10 or Y12, but not Y11.

As MamaPajama says, support at home could make the crucial difference.

I'd been thinking too that if a mother is on her own turf, so to speak ,it is all a lot easier. Even if she has been living in Germany for 11 years, the schooling in the UK will be in the dm's mother tongue and in a system she has passed through/will understand and be well able to negotiate. I think that makes it a lot easier since IME it is generally up to the dm to help dc with their schooling at home.

I would also consider too where the dc should be attending university later on. If the idea is for them to attend a German university, completing schooling there makes more sense. I presume though part of the idea behind moving now is that they should attend a UK university. In which case, the sooner they enter the British system, the better.

The conditions at German universities, in particular big city ones (very high student numbers and little pastoral care/individual guidance/tutoring etc) can make it a bleak place to be. There are high drop-out quotas. I personally would prefer dd to attend a university in the UK but depends on their dc's characters and what the dps want for them.