SW London 11+ worries

[Oldwreck]

Is anyone able to give me some words of encouragement please as am feeling very discouraged about the 11+ process. DD is bright but not a genius. Better at English than maths but pretty much an all rounder and very diligent and enthusiastic. One of the stronger ones in her class (according to her teacher) at a state school but there are quite a few who are better at maths in the class for example. Support from the school during lockdown was unfortunately not good, and the school doesn’t get involved in the 11+ process in any way (understandably) so she’s not very well prepared. She’s been doing tutor sessions a couple of times a week for a while now and recently some practice papers, but only one or two a week - nothing like the full-on preparations others are doing. I just don’t want to push her too hard or force her to stop her hobbies. She’s a very natural, lovely, intelligent girl who I think will come across pretty well in interview but I expect will get marks no higher than 70-75% in her maths and 75-80% for English. And that’s if things go well! We’ve applied to a range of schools (only co-ed - her choice) and she likes them all. But from everything I’ve read I get the impression she doesn’t stand a chance of getting in anywhere and that the gulf between state and private is just too big!! The co-ed schools obviously only have half the number of places for girls and some are quite small schools. Single sex schools not an option for her. Does anyone have any good experiences of being in a similar boat and coming out the other side with some offers?! I really don’t want her to be knocked by this process. Thanks so much.

All of the schools look at whether the child is coming from a state school or a prep and give due consideration to this. Look at the statistics of admissions from each sector. KGS at their open day recently said they take around 60% from state and 40% from prep. My DD is at WHS, that year they said they take around 50% from state. They don't have the same expectations of state school kids, they know they won't have been prepared by their primary schools. They are looking for potential.

I have a DD like yours, we opted not to do the 11+ and chose a reasonable comprehensive because she didn't want the pressure of being put through the tutoring mill. I was sad about it, as my DD is very bright and diligent in school, but really quite lazy if you ask her to go further
and she hated the idea of doing additional outside of school. However you don't stand a fighting chance in my area of getting a place at the excellent selective school unless you are tutored. Some friends did a few hours a week plus extra homework, others did 4 or 5 hours a week from about Y4 and added tutor camps every holiday in Y5.

Plenty of her kids we knkw in state school have passed the exam this way but borderline, so unclear if they will make the cut for their school of choice.

It is 100% up to you to ensure you manage your DD's mental health to make sure that she isn't devastated if she fails to pass, or passes but still doesnt get an offer from a school she wants to go to. If you can't manage that, then you have a choice; don't put her through this. You are the parent here, it is in your hands.

And you need to suck up the unfairness of it all. Naturally private school pupils are better prepared. It would be a crying bloody shame if their parents spent all that money and they weren't! It just is what it is. We do not live in a world that is strictly fair. Many children have a better chance in life than others due to their family circumstances.
If you deal with your own emotions about it, my experience is you are better placed to support your daughter.

@Sweetnhappy1

All of the schools look at whether the child is coming from a state school or a prep and give due consideration to this. Look at the statistics of admissions from each sector. KGS at their open day recently said they take around 60% from state and 40% from prep. My DD is at WHS, that year they said they take around 50% from state. They don't have the same expectations of state school kids, they know they won't have been prepared by their primary schools. They are looking for potential.

Not true from my experience SW 11+ last year. They will be all compared against each other.. x

@PennyWus thank you - v good advice.

@WineAndMassage they absolutely do look at where the child is coming from. Especially with the interviews/activity days.

I agree Sweetnhappy. The schools do take into account whether state/private and in some ways it’s an advantage coming from state as the schools want to give a certain percentage of places to state school children. You’ll still need to do well enough in exam but maybe they don’t expect such a polished performance and some allowances will usually be made. Don’t be put off by the blazers and badges of the prep schools - your dd has just as much chance!

Thank you @Pencilsready.

Your issue is the co-ed thing, once you remove the girls schools in SW London there isnt a lot of range left. Knocking out all the GDST id limiting as they can be both the backup and the stretch iyswim.

Anyway, I suppose that leaves CLF, St Johns, Epsom, KGS etc

@ChristopherTracy , also for where the OP is based if considering Radnor also St George's and Harrodian.

Yes excluding girls schools limits the choice a lot. It might be wise to have put Sutton GDST in the mix as that's generally a banker for medium bright girls. She could always try again at 13+ for a mixed co-ed if she doesn't settle there. Or maybe weekly boarding instead? Plenty of co-ed options in and around Surrey and Sussex area and easier to get into than some of the more sought-after SW London day schools.

@Oldwreck, why does your DD prefer co-ed schools? What does she expect/hope she'll get or experience in a co-ed setting that she wouldn't at an all-girls school? If we knew a bit more about the reasons for her preference, posters might be able to suggest girls schools that have the qualities she's looking for or don't have whatever attributes she's trying to avoid.

Granted, there's no getting around the fact that there won't be any boys at those schools, but I guess my question is what is she hoping that having boys at school will bring? Some girls schools have strong ties with their local boys schools, with lots of mixing for extra-curricular activities, so that's another thing to look into before ruling out a particular all-girls option.

Thanks all for the suggestions. Very kind of you to respond. We’re going to stick with the plan in terms of where we’re applying as feel it’s a bit late in the day to make changes or apply to schools we haven’t seen. We have applied to all the co-ed schools that she can get to without a hideously long journey. Just keen to hear some positive stories from people in a similar situation who’ve come out the other side. (The co-ed thing is a bit of a long and outing story so I won’t go into it.)

@Oldwreck , due to the number of all girls schools in the area girls are always fine in the process. If you add up the number of places for girls at Surbiton high, Notre dame in Cobham and SWP in chertsey plus st cats in Twick - these 4 schools take 100's of girls out the system leaving lots of places for girls in the mixed schools.

I know it’s not co-ed, but my very average, not above average, ability child went to SCHS from a state primary - not one which routinely sent children to private schools. We did no tutoring at all, or any of the verbal reasoning or non verbal reasoning stuff.

@1309username

Ask the Head, but usually they send CATS results with the reports, but no harm asking if they did

@Oldwreck

Are you sure the independent sector is the best choice for you? Senior schools not only have to be what we think is best for the child, but also for the parent.

You mentioned before that the process is "not fair" ... this kind of thinking really doesn't go with most independent schools.

Independent schools only give prizes, honorific mentions and so on, to those that come top, pretty much like the real world, 100s apply for a job, only 1 gets it and the rest might get a thank you. Same in the independent sector, if you child won, then they get the prize or placement, if not then they don't get anything. These schools don't give prizes for just doing what you are supposed to do. It's life, nothing to do with fairness.

Equally, as a parent, you are paying premium fees, you expect the school to prepare your child. Lockdown provision was an expectation of quality as the fees didn't decrease. So when it comes to the entrance exam process, we expect our children to be ready and to do well. We expect more than one placement offer, nothing to do with how good you think your DD is or not, that is why we are paying.

Children in the independent sector are used to sit exams constantly and we know their results and where they are academically and the academic standard (which varies) accordingly. Still the 11+, etc is a process and stressful, but only as much as you allow it to be.

Apologies if this sounds a bit brutal, but it is pretty straightforward, fairness doesn't play a role as that's not why we are paying the fees we pay every term.

This is why I am asking if you are sure this is the right setting for you as a parent?

If you think it is, then best if you start preparing your DD to sit the exams.

When we moved from the maintained sector to the independent sector, we got a tutor to help our child in terms of sitting exams. Very bright academically, but has never sat exams in this way, so we did that. You can also get her books to practise the format and level of questions for the schools she is going to be sitting those exams. Lots of resources, CGP books, ISEB books, atom on line, etc.

You are a little bit behind "in the game" but you keep saying how bright your DD is, so get her the tools and get her practising, so she gets into the school that is right for her academically.

In terms of the CATS exams, these are cognitive aptitude exams, although kids can get better at them with practise, this is not recommended and they just sit these tests without any preparation.

They are not exclusively of private schools, most comprehensive school do them in Y7 if their students didn't do them in Y6 in order to stream them. Usually maintained schools do them in Y6, if not, the comprehensive school then do them as part of their admission's process or during the 1st term to stream the kids. My guess is that independent schools also offer them in the admissions process if they haven't done them.

I think that 100 to 125 is average and most kids are in this bracket. 125 to 130 is above average. 131 to 135 only 2% of the population score these (apparently that 2% live in the SW by the looks of it it seems!) Anything from 135 to 141 says less than 1% of the population, and it is a very welcomed score in any school, alongside their present school's report, reference and doing well in the entrance exams. See what CATs score is expected in the schools you have chosen will be good too.

Hopefully she plays an instrument or excels in a sport, these come handy in the interviews.

Finally .... as everyone has said it, co-ed places are precious and not in abundance as you have both genders going for a placements it automatically reduces the number of places for 1 gender.

Have a think and get her practising if you decide to move from one sector to the other. We moved a little while ago and haven't looked back, but we do have a very bright child with a very competitive strike and enjoys the demands that come with these schools.

Best of luck.

PS ladies please correct me if I got the CATS scores wrong, mine was in the crazy good side of the scores so never really bothered to look at them in details and this is what I vaguely remember

I think the poster above is exaggerating the differences between the independent schools and a lot of state schools.
My DCs went from state primaries to private ( very selective) secondaries as did lots of their friends. No great issues, no competitiveness etc.
Just do tons of practice papers- if they know the stuff it all comes down to timing!
It is easier for girls and the Co-Ed’s. Have been through it with a hot and a girl. There are very few all boys schools compared to girls so the coeds are more competitive for them.

Boy not hot in above post!

I agree with Hongkonggal, our experience of moving from state to independent secondary has not been a case of "Independent schools only give prizes, honorific mentions and so on, to those that come top, pretty much like the real world, 100s apply for a job, only 1 gets it and the rest might get a thank you."

We certainly haven't found the transition from state to selective independent secondary to involve a steep step up in competitiveness or ferocious jostling for rank between the DC. I think if you choose your independent school wisely, that sort of approach can be avoided.

DD has been completely fine moving from an ordinary primary to a selective independent (also SW London). Nor did we do much tutoring, and what we did do was mainly aimed at exam technique and speeding her up a bit. It is perfectly possible to get into a school that you like from a state primary and to do well once there.

Thank you everyone for your helpful comments.

Despite what you might hear on MN there aren't enough of the super bright kids to fill all the places in London. I know this because a good friend teaches at a 'leading private school'. Many of the middle tier schools are forced to admit a lot more 'average' kids that they would have parents believe. It's all done a bit surreptitiously when they start sending out offers and discover that a large number of kids who sat their entrance exam have taken places elsewhere.

Most people on MN will let you believe that their children are geniuses and getting 90% on every entrance exams but it's complete BS.

The 11+ is a horribly designed process. It requires students take loads of tests and despite taking so many tests, they only get 1 opportunity at each school. Furthermore, so many of theses schools end up making offers to the exact same students as other schools...so why then do they need their own proprietary tests?! Oxford researchers did some brilliant work looking at 70,000 student in England. They found that a student's CAT scores at age 11 are 81% correlated with their GCSE scores at age 16. So just using the CATs alone will be very highly predictive of a student's GCSE potential.

London private schools cover a huge range of attainment levels, although 'SW London co-ed' is clearly quite niche.

e.g. if you look at the A level league table on this page here, crudely speaking [very very crudely - there are clearly no bright lines between e.g. 10th & 11th place, I chose these points arbitrarily, but they also feel roughly OK], in comparison to the state sector the intake is roughly as follows:

(a) the top 5 are like the top end of super-selective grammars;
(b) the rest of the top 10 are like super-selective grammars;
(c) places 11-20 ish are like mid to high end local grammars;
(d) places to 21-30 ish are like low to mid end local grammars;
(e) places in the 30s are like comps with the low-mid to low bottom streams chopped off;
(f) places in the 40s & 50s are like comps with the bottom streams chopped off & slightly fewer really bright kids;
(g) places below that are like comps with almost no really bright kids but fewer 'problem'/borderline SEN type kids.

It's all stressful & unpleasant but parents need to make applications which are realistic & which include an element of 'first choices/backup choices'.

www.mytopschools.co.uk/london-private-schools/