Is it worth raising this, or is it just part of being at secondary school?

[siegriedswaistcoat]

My eldest son is in year 8 at a large academy. Whenever it rains he comes home with most of his packed lunch uneaten. He says that people with a packed lunch have to eat outside everyday. If it is raining or has recently rained there is nowhere dry to sit.

I have suggested that he politely tell someone at school about this. I think that the staff may not realize that this is a problem and a solution could easily be found. I am guessing that the lunch staff and cleaners do not want to be cleaning up after the packed lunch pupils as well as cleaning up the canteen. I wondered if they could eat in an empty home economics class room where there will be cloths and a dust pan and brush to clean up after themselves.

I know I am being very PFB but I think that a dry place to sit and eat is a fairly basic requirement. My son has some SN and is reluctant to speak to anyone.

This is ridiculous! When I was at school students could choose to have hot lunch and eat in the canteen or packed lunch in the school hall (lower years) large room in a different block (upper years). I can't believe they're expected to eat outside in the cold and rain!

As a side issue: when it's biblical rain like we have had this week, do all high schools make all kids stand outside for 30 min and make them sit in wet clothes all afternoon? Genuine query. I assume my DCs school doesn't as not aware of it happening but they do do a lot of lunch clubs. Must ask.

Last year our secondary expected pupils to eat outside at lunchtime because of covid, but did let them in if it was raining.

Raise it for sure.

I had packed lunch at secondary schools. When it was wet lunch we were allowed to eat in the hall.

Not going to lie, it smelt in there of sandwiches and oranges (I can still smell it now) but it was dry and we could sit on the chairs.

You need to contact school office or Head of year. Something similar happened at my daughters school. She has a health issue which means she has to eat regularly but was told she couldn't eat on the field but the hall normally used was closed for exams . No lunch eaten DD unwell on coming home. School contacted that night with a I think you may have not realised email. Issue sorted and apologies for it happening by 6pm. Head of year even checked she was ok the next day. Speak to school.

@lanthanum

Last year our secondary expected pupils to eat outside at lunchtime because of covid, but did let them in if it was raining.

Last year I totally get. Groups indoors allow Covid to spread. But that's been abandoned.

This is outrageous!

Quote article 24 of the rights of the child.. https://downloads.unicef.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/UNCRCsummary-11_1.pdf

in fact I'd argue it's inhumane tbh! I don't expect the teachers are eating outside in the rain?!

Ask for a meeting to discuss.

I was in school before the Ark was built.

The school had been built in 1950s and then extended in the 1970s so we had two kitchens and two places to eat, one for lower years one for upper years. Both had tables for students to eat packed lunches.

Even in the middle of summer, you were not allowed out until you had eaten (we were also not allowed to sit on the grass that surrounded the playgrounds).

OP

Raise it with the school, ask for their risk assessment for this, H and S often makes schools nervous because a head can be found liable as a person and have to pay a fine.

I don't see the relevance of article 24 of the Unicef Convention. That is about provision of health care, clean water, healthy food and a safe living environment.

What is relevant is the government advice on School Food in England (www.gov.uk/government/publications/standards-for-school-food-in-england/school-food-in-england) which says, "Facilities to eat the food that they bring to school must be provided free of charge for pupils not taking school meals. As a minimum these facilities should include accommodation, furniture and supervision so that pupils can eat food they have brought from home in a safe and social environment." Making pupils eat packed lunches outside appears to breach this advice.

That sounds rather draconian. It rains a lot round here so the students would get pretty hungry most of the time.

My dc's secondary has 25 minutes for lunch and almost no inside places to sit and eat. They eat standing round most of the time. They've never found it a problem, even when I've commented it seems very short and a bit miserable to do it that way. They're not particularly outside people.
One particularly cold term, one of them did decide joining the history club was a good idea because they could sit inside to eat, but that's only happened one term, so I can only conclude they didn't find it so bad.

@Skysblue

You are not being PFB.

YABVVU if your son comes to tell you that he’s only allowed to eat outside in the rain,and instead of raising it with the school you ask the internet what to do. Why are you not in the Headteacher’s office demanding to know why child neglect is taking place in their school? I would be. If you get nowhere with head then you escalate to the governors, ofsted and even local newspapers etc. Or you change school.
I’m amazed what parents in the UK put up with from schools.

Things only change because somekne makes them change.

Or perhaps she could send an email to ask if this is what actually happens, rather than demanding things in the head teacher’s office and escalating and going to the newspapers! Accusing the school of child neglect is insulting to those that genuinely have suffered from child abuse. Why are people so entitled and nasty nowadays? Try being polite and considered, it makes the world a nicer place and often gets a better result.

Would you not consider him having school dinners which is indoors and hot food for the winter. Most of the kids have school dinners so why cant he, is there a specific reason he cant eat school dinners?

The school I worked in had dining facilities that were woefully inadequate. Even pupils taking hot food from the servery were encouraged to take it outside to eat. Roast dinners etc were served in cardboard cartons and they took a plastic spoon outside. The boxes could not be recycled as they were contaminated with food waste so the box, leftover food and forks all went into the bin. School had some sort of green school award …

Fork, not spoon

@Crouchendmumoftwo

Would you not consider him having school dinners which is indoors and hot food for the winter. Most of the kids have school dinners so why cant he, is there a specific reason he cant eat school dinners?

That's not really the point, though, is it?

Actually I think there is a point about having a cooked meal at lunchtime. My DDs went to an independent school. No one had a packed lunch. Meals were paid for by parents so children ate them.

You're not being PFB, and you're not being unreasonable. You've also thought about the logistics..,,but that'll be the main issue.

I've been round four schools in the past week and all of them have this situation. In fact, they also all had different lunches for different year groups because there wasn't space in the canteen for them.

I don't know an alternative. You can't let them into classrooms without supervision (safeguarding- it creates an environment where vulnerable students can't be watched, where bullying could take place, and where students could be doing illicit activities). You can't let them into the gyms because they're probably bring used.

If you're at an average size secondary, there simply isn't the space for all the students to sit down inside, safely.

I wasn't allowed into the staff rooms of the schools I went round (COVID), but when you've got a short lunch break, staff aren't generally sitting round together eating in a lovely environment either. At the moment people are generally grabbing stuff where they can.

@TizerorFizz

Actually I think there is a point about having a cooked meal at lunchtime. My DDs went to an independent school. No one had a packed lunch. Meals were paid for by parents so children ate them.

Independents can do this because generally they're much smaller (very few of them have 1500 students), and have a longer lunch break. The food is also a key selling point for independents, so it's a major consideration in timetabling. If you have an hour for lunch, then getting a whole year group through a canteen is feasible. Parents also pay more for the lunches, which makes it economically viable, and an important consideration for an independent school. It's worthwhile then building a larger canteen, basically.

It's a problem for schools with loads of free school meal kids. I worked at a school where 75%+ of the school had this entitlement. We had to change the entire structure of the school day to accommodate their lunch.

This is totally insane and enraging. We have a fairly shit food culture in this country anyway and this is just adding to it via our kids. What the hell. There should be a warm, dry place them to sit and eat their lunch properly so they can function. The things we put up with SMH

You're not being PFB at all. That's really poor. Of course the children should have somewhere warm and dry to eat their lunch. I would definitely raise it - an email to form teacher?

@Curioushorse
That was my earlier point. Lunch breaks are too short. A good education involves DC having a civilised lunch. Yes I do know most independent schools are smaller but lunch time is valued more as a socialising event, DC catching up with friends and even acquiring conversation and dining skills! Not to mention time built in for clubs and extra activities.

Parents do usually pay tax and council tax for state schools. I would very much object to 1/2 hour for lunch and no reasonable facilities. My LA closed all their kitchens decades ago, so as most schools converted them to learning spaces, decent hot meals are a distant memory. It’s not acceptable and certainly the fsm children are poorly served by this. There is a better way and it’s eating hot meals in a pleasant environment but many schools are factories. They do not educate for life.