Wilson's/Sutton Grammar or Graveney first in CAF?

[fedem]

Hi, everyon.
My DS passed the Sutton, Wilsons' and Wallington Grammar tests and reached a good mark for Graveney that might get him an offer by end August ( maybe not first round) I am now struggling with CAF application as neither of these offers are certain.
DS is very bright but not geeky, loves reading, excellent at maths but is also funny and sporty. I did not have the chance of visting the schools. Are grammar schools very geeky and mostly academically focussed? Are they quite diverse in terms of ethnicity? He is keen to be academically challenged as he has been vey bored in his state school in the past three years, but I also want to him to explore subjects ike the arts that he no chance to experience so far and have a broad education and some fun. Any insights on these schools that can help me choose our first chioce on the CAF? Really struggling! Thanks everyone!

I don't know the schools concerned so I can't help with choosing, but I picked up on "neither of these offers are certain"- I just wanted to make sure that you were clear that you don't get priority for putting a school first or lose priority for putting it further down. There is an equal preference system so you should always list schools in your genuine order of preference, and there is no 'risk' involved in putting a school you're not sure you'll get an offer at first, as long as you include others where you're pretty sure you will somewhere on the form. Apologies if you were already clear on that!

I think with something like this you need to first, in your own mind, decide what order you'd rank the schools in if you were guaranteed a place and then, secondly, ask someone in your primary school's SLT to give you tips on filling out the CAF.

The letter that comes with the WT should be reasonably clear about your chances of getting into Graveney - 250+ combined and you'll almost certainly be be in, eventually, below 245 and you're out, 245-249 is risky.

Your questions about 'geekiness' etc require some pretty subjective judgements. If you had both the time and inclination you could spend 10 minutes hanging round the school gates of the schools you're interested in at the start or end of the day, that'd probably tell you a lot of what you need to know.

If it's important to you, you could FOI the schools to get diversity numbers, if it's not already in their Ofsteds or diversity reports. Graveney is overall very diverse but it's selective stream [controversially - e.g. see www.instagram.com/graveneystoriesofracism/?hl=en] tends towards being much whiter. Some of the Sutton grammars seem to be tending towards being dominated by 2nd/3rd generation 'Indian' [including via Kenya/Tanzania/Uganda] kids, as per this FOI response for one of the girls' schools where the sisters of Wilsons etc kids go.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/diversity_statistics_for_nonsuch#incoming-1853468

Good luck.

Also consider logistics of getting to and fro. Better to be in an area where a number do same trip and he can do after school activities easily,

Hi - do you mind me asking what score he got?

I don't know Graveney but my DS is at Wilson's. He has a broad range of interests and the school nurtures these well. It is a fantastic school and I think their website represents them well: www.wilsons.school/co-curricular/sport/
DS is white and has a mixed group of very lovely friends.
Happy to answer questions if you want to PM me.
I agree that logistics/proximity are important - especially if your DS is sporty and will have match fixtures.

@puffyisgood All that matters is the order you'd rank the schools in if you were guaranteed a place, and always include at least one school somewhere that you can be pretty sure of gaining a place. You don't need to consider risk as you don't risk losing a place for not putting a school first.

@ChildOfFriday
Thank you, yes I know I don'tt get priorty for putting it up the list as schools will not know were in the CAF they are. Though I still have to choose which one to put first as the LA will give me that school if more than one offer comes through. Also , my understanding is that if I put a school further dow the list, my DS won't be in their waiting list f I receive an offer from a school higher in the list. I might be wrong in this. I just need insight into the schols ( that are all now closed for half term , so I cannot even emal/call) to understand which would be a better fit and put it first.

@puffyisgood my son got 254 on Wandsworth test so probably a good chance at least towards end of summer.
Unlikely schools are closed now, so no chance to hang around to watch the kids ( that would ahve been a good idea)
I emailed the grammar regarding diversity but they told me it will take about 20 days to get back to me on that matter ( passed the CAF) I read an article on the Times looking into how grammar schools are no longer diverse as one ethicity is now very dominant. I want to add also tha my son is mixed race and half from that specific ethnicity, so nothing controversial here I hope!

@LIZS yes, Wilson's the hardest - wak to train, train and bus
Sutton and WWAllington walk to train and walk to School#Gravemey, walk to bus stop and bus
Graveney feels abit more local as we are in Dulwich and it is in Tooting I know a few kids that would be on the same bus and live nearby. I cannot seem to find anyone from around here going to the Grammar sthough I am sure there will be plaenty of kids on the train.

@BumbledBee tahnk you I will DM you

[quote fedem]@puffyisgood my son got 254 on Wandsworth test so probably a good chance at least towards end of summer.
Unlikely schools are closed now, so no chance to hang around to watch the kids ( that would ahve been a good idea)
I emailed the grammar regarding diversity but they told me it will take about 20 days to get back to me on that matter ( passed the CAF) I read an article on the Times looking into how grammar schools are no longer diverse as one ethicity is now very dominant. I want to add also tha my son is mixed race and half from that specific ethnicity, so nothing controversial here I hope![/quote]
Re: diversity - I think I read the same Times article, a year or so ago. You can see it from the FOI Nonsuch stats I linked earlier - as of summer 2021, there's a very clear year-on-year trend for the number of 'Indian' pupils to increase, with the Times seemingly saying that it's common everywhere. Whether you view that as a good or bad thing or not is of course up to you.

Re: Graveney scores - with 254, I'd honestly be super-relaxed about getting in. As this year's results letter said, the highest entry August requirement there's been [in the last 4 years] is 248 and if anything there seems to be a very slight downward trend.

@allycat4
I don't know the score for the Grammars, they do not disclose it taht is annoying as you don;t know if DShas just made it through or if he has top score, this would help to know where he is in their list but they don't say. All I got is that he qualifies for a place at the 3 of them ( being Wilsons the one that requires a higher score )so to have the chance of an offer I have to put the schools in the CAF but have no idea where in their list he is. For Graveney he scored 254

@puffyisgood
I know other kids that got 254/25 so possibly may other with similr scores, and lots of places to sibling.but you are right that offers in August had lower marks. I unless lots of movement in the waiting list

Check the frequency of the trains for the grammars and what they will do if the train is cancelled

Dulwich to Wilson's sounds potentially pretty brutal to me, unless you happen to live really close to your station. If you were desperate to go there I suppose you could move as a family.

A boy who's 'passed' for all three of the Sutton grammars will almost certainly end up being offered at least one of them but it's not certain and definitely not certain which one(s) it wil be. 254 in the Graveney VR/NVR tests, unless on a 'bad day', might arguably suggest to me that Wilson's could be a bit of a stretch, unless the child is disproportionately good at the writing/longer form maths stuff that's not in the WT but is in the grammars test and which Wilsons places a high weight on.

Does your son have any preference?

How does he feel about the journeys?

Does he have a preference for single sex or co-Ed?

I don't know about your commute - it should be an important factor, so make sure you try it out before you make your decision. But I know kids at all of those schools and I have a DS at WCGS. We didn't apply for Graveney as decided that single sex was the best for our DS.

As regards the grammars, I wouldn't worry about 'geeky' or not. All the kids who go to the grammars will have some level of academic ambition, and families who place an emphasis on academics as well. As with all teenagers, some will be 'geeky', some will be less so. At WCGS there are plenty of sporting opportunities (although the focus is on rugby and cricket rather than football). The pastoral care is an important part of the school (they have lessons on wellbeing and good communication with the parents about pastoral matters). I'd say there is equal emphasis on humanities and arts subjects as STEM (although more children tend to specialise in the STEM subjects).

Honestly, don't try to second guess whether you have a place, just fill in the CAF with your genuine order of preference.

@DonGray yoi are right abd trains do get cancelled. If Wilson's was the choixe we would arrange an Uber for the morning (30min) because it could become a nightmare

@GordievskyF

Honestly, don't try to second guess whether you have a place, just fill in the CAF with your genuine order of preference.

Yes, I might have put the wrong title to this hread, as my intention is just to have more insight into this schools so we can have a better feel on what we would like best and which one to put first. We cannot make up our minds yet., not having seen them, I cannot second guess wher I have more chances as it seem far too unpredictable.

@puffyisgood DS is particularly strong in maths, long working out kind of questions , doing indy schools papers but neer been stretched a school ( state - no streaming)
I don't think he had a bad day at Graveney though.

Understood @fedem. I feel for you - they are such different schools and you really do get a feel when you look around. Graveney is so different from the Sutton grammars, and each of the Sutton grammars are quite different from each other really. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about WCGS.

@EdgeOfTheSky
DS does not ahve a prefrence, as we have not visited. I think no one expected him to ass Grammars so never really looked into it. Now of course he is quite confused. Has no preference regarding single sex or co ed. Will have to come up with a preference soon! Tim is ticking!

Really, I'd go for the one with the easiest commute. The boys get a lot of homework so the less time spent travelling to and from school the better. And boys who live far away often have to miss out on after school activities.

The three Sutton super-selectives are all academically challenging, have a healthy mix of geeky and sporty pupils and are ethnically diverse - ethnically Asian students are probably the biggest group in all three. The majority of pupils do tend to specialise in STEM subjects but there is plenty of opportunity to study the arts and humanities.

For the right kids they're great schools. It sounds like your DS would thrive in any of them.

[quote fedem]@DonGray yoi are right abd trains do get cancelled. If Wilson's was the choixe we would arrange an Uber for the morning (30min) because it could become a nightmare[/quote]
Dulwich to Wilson's in half an hour would not happen in the morning - I have a similar journey to work and is normally about 50 minutes in the morning - but can be 25 other times of day. They are all good schools and you'd be best seeing which appeals to your child the most. Do a pros and cons list with your son, score each point and see which school comes out top.

One of my DC is in Graveney. Was in their top set and was one of 4 non white kids in the class. School itself is very mixed. They did very well in GCSE and I think are broadly happy there.