Trinity Croydon- "selective" or "super-selective"? 11+

[Pollypocket81]

Hi,
Is Trinity School Croydon considered "selective" or "super selective" for the 11plus entry? What's the difference? Just wondering how difficult it is to get in.

I am not sure what the latest statistics are for their admissions in terms of number of applicants per place but I would say they are somewhere between the two on a spectrum of selectivity!

'SS' is a purely subjective term, there's no 'official' answer.

But in my experience it's a term that'd be at most rarely applied to Trinity.

I think it and DC are the most selective south london boys schools, so harder than other nearby schools but not as hard as some of the central london schools. It's partly a numbers game as they have fewer spaces to fill then Whitgift, for example.

Selective. In that is it easier to get into Trinity if you are paying full fees than get a place at Wilsons? Yes.

If however, you are in the hunt for a bursary place or a scholarship then yes its super selective.

The terms selective and superselective are applied to state Grammars.

Super selective only admits purely in exam result with no reference to other things such as address and no catchment area. Applicants are ranked according to exam result and places given out until no places left.
Selective is a school where you have to pass the exam, but once you're above the pass mark, places are awarded according to to their criteria such as distance.

Typically a full grammar area like Kent or Bucks takes the top 25-30% and the schools are selective. Super selectives with zero catchment criteria but purely exam based like QE Barnet might take the top 5% of ability.

Independent schools cannot be ranked like this. Those who can afford to apply are limited.

In terms of selection, few independents if any will have the 2800 applicants for about 100 places that the Barnet state grammars have.

Therefore, it's easier to get an offer, in terms of applicants per place. Being in he top few to earn a sizeable bursary (only given if achieving at top level and meeting the means testing criteria) will be much harder to achieve.

It is often the case that those who get places in super selective state schools also get bursary and/or scholarship offers. Scholarship offers are not means tested and tend to be small amounts, and alone won't allow most famikies to afford the fees.

So, the majority of places at somewhere like Trinity go to full fee payers. They need to, in order to fund it. Most of them wouldn't get into the super selective, but some would.

It is always difficult to tell by looking at applicants per place as lots of kids sit several schools but can only take one place. Even very selective schools (Independnet) have to significantly over offer in order to fill. Geography in particular leads to even the most popular schools getting rejections from some of those they make offers to.

Is the Q more about pecking order if schools?

the majority of places at somewhere like Trinity go to full fee payers

Actually, Trinity is a bit of an acception in that over half their families do not pay full fees.

I concur, half of families do not pay full fee, even possibly more, this is due to a very generous bursaries and scholarship fund. The school is very transparent about it and will disclose full details.

That’s interesting so many get financial help.
I’d suspect that whilst some are getting sizeable help, with numbers being over half, many will be on pretty small financial help of around £1k, which is what many scholarships are today….almost a token amount, when fees are over £20k.

Even with more sizeable help, the fees will exceed £12 or £15k for many families, which in itself limits the applications…..will never be the applications per place, compared to the genuine super selective state schools, which is where this thread started.

Many of those who apply will also be applying to the state grammars in the area, and if they get offers, will turn down even a generous Trinity bursary/scholarship, because even reduced fees are sizeable. Independent schools in state grammar areas always gave this to contend with, and often have to over-offer even more significantly that those in other areas. Additionally, it is an area with a decent number if independents, so people have lots of choice and might also hold offers from Whitgift or Caterham or schools further into London.

What would be interesting (but never available info) would be the ranking of applicants and exactly how far down the list they have to offer, in order to fill places. It is probably much further than many imagine. There will be lots of very very bright boys who will also have state grammar offers and scholarship offers from other schools too, down to those who definitely wouldn’t have got state grammar offers or scholarship offers from elsewhere and make up the ‘tail’ of the school. All schools have a tail because not every child will be of the ability level of the top performers, but the length of the tail and how ‘low’ it goes is the thing that varies, and accounts for the small differences in results. What is often the most impressive thing about schools like Trinity, is not the results they get from their very able students, but what they squeeze out of their ‘tail’…..not necessarily Oxbridge results, but extremely good e am results which get students to RG unis and highly sought-after courses, from much less impresssive starting points. It’s a key thing people are willing to pay for, but those who can afford to do this will always be limited, so applicants lower and the tail longer than in non-fee paying schools.

@WombatChocolate

That’s interesting so many get financial help. I’d suspect that whilst some are getting sizeable help, with numbers being over half, many will be on pretty small financial help of around £1k, which is what many scholarships are today….almost a token amount, when fees are over £20k.

Even with more sizeable help, the fees will exceed £12 or £15k for many families, which in itself limits the applications…..will never be the applications per place, compared to the genuine super selective state schools, which is where this thread started.

Many of those who apply will also be applying to the state grammars in the area, and if they get offers, will turn down even a generous Trinity bursary/scholarship, because even reduced fees are sizeable. Independent schools in state grammar areas always gave this to contend with, and often have to over-offer even more significantly that those in other areas. Additionally, it is an area with a decent number if independents, so people have lots of choice and might also hold offers from Whitgift or Caterham or schools further into London.

What would be interesting (but never available info) would be the ranking of applicants and exactly how far down the list they have to offer, in order to fill places. It is probably much further than many imagine. There will be lots of very very bright boys who will also have state grammar offers and scholarship offers from other schools too, down to those who definitely wouldn’t have got state grammar offers or scholarship offers from elsewhere and make up the ‘tail’ of the school. All schools have a tail because not every child will be of the ability level of the top performers, but the length of the tail and how ‘low’ it goes is the thing that varies, and accounts for the small differences in results. What is often the most impressive thing about schools like Trinity, is not the results they get from their very able students, but what they squeeze out of their ‘tail’…..not necessarily Oxbridge results, but extremely good e am results which get students to RG unis and highly sought-after courses, from much less impresssive starting points. It’s a key thing people are willing to pay for, but those who can afford to do this will always be limited, so applicants lower and the tail longer than in non-fee paying schools.

It's a fair comment in terms of how far a private school's extra funding per pupil goes in terms of outcomes.

e.g. if you compare say Wilson's and Trinity, Wilson's has 30-odd % more pupils and 'only' about 40-odd % more Oxbridge places, despite their kids starting at a far higher average level.

why the discrepancy? maybe the Wilsons kids have been on average worked harder for 11+ and have less headroom for improvement? maybe Wilsons kids tend to interview less well [that process possibly still being biased towards entrants from the private sector]? both plausible, but you have to suspect that it all comes down to funding.

Trinity, firstly is co ed and also academically selective, which makes places extremly rarewith academics at GCSE and A levels on par with KCS/ Westminister and the likes for London based schools..

Grammars are super selective as purely exam based metrics for qualification. Think 1500+ applicants for 180 places 10:1 (~12%) chance for a place if you are within the inner zone.

Scholarships /bursary's are rare, however we mnow friends who were helped by Trinity, who lives by does fostering a culture to give to those that need who are academically very bright.

"Is the Q more about pecking order if schools?"

It's very interesting reading all the insightful comments. I suppose I'm trying to work out how difficult it is to get into at 11plus (not 10plus) compared to other schools. There was a helpful link to atom scores/average entry scores here recently but it did not include Trinity.

It may help you to know that my son applied to Trinity, Kings College Wimbledon , Wilsons and Whitgift. He said the Trinity exam was the hardest exam of the privates but Wilsons was the hardest overall because of timing. He wasn’t tutored and I think that was a big difference between him and most entrants. He failed the Wilsons entry but got scholarships at all the private schools. He gets 30% scholarship at Trinity and most of his friends receive scholarships of some sort.
Trinity is only co-Ed st 6th firm,

I think it’s a big mistake to rate a school on Oxbrufge entrueseg I would not recommend doing medicine at Oxbridge compared to London. So really it’s a very superficial marker of success.

Sorry about typos something weird happened there.

Thanks Wobblypig - interesting to hear and a bit scary!

Polly no reason to be scared. I was disappointed that my son didn’t get into Wilsons but we didn’t tutor and never would , but in response he really performed well for the privates. To a certain extent to have to trust the system. Spread your bets: have an ambitious target school; a school you would be happy with and a sure thing.

@WombatChocolate the ability profile of top London day schools is similar to super selective grammars.

Top independent schools actually outperform most grammars at A-level and while more people apply to grammar school the ability level needed to get in is still very high at indies.

In fact one might argue that the testing format of grammars favours tutoring, practice and effort over natural intelligence when compared to the indie tests which would account in part for top indies outperforming grammars in exam results.

Those figures are not accurate for Bucks. Aylesbury Vale area pass rate is 20% of those registered for the test. That figure is 78% of the cohort. So nowhere near a 1:4 chance. 414 passed for 4 grammar schools. The rest in the grammars are out of county pupils who achieved the pass mark. So a much bigger cohort than purely Bucks children.

[quote LondonGirl83]@WombatChocolate the ability profile of top London day schools is similar to super selective grammars.

Top independent schools actually outperform most grammars at A-level and while more people apply to grammar school the ability level needed to get in is still very high at indies.

In fact one might argue that the testing format of grammars favours tutoring, practice and effort over natural intelligence when compared to the indie tests which would account in part for top indies outperforming grammars in exam results.[/quote]
Ha, and I daresay that the fact that the average private school has double the budget per pupil of any state school may just about squeeze its wa into the reckoning .

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/oct/08/english-private-school-fees-90-higher-than-state-school-spending-per-pupil

The money spent is of course bigger at independent schools but that money covers a lot more. Clearly it pays for smaller classes but upkeep of all buildings has to be factored in and all services must be paid for at full cost. So a like for like comparison might not be easy between 6th forms in grammars and run of the mill independent schools. Money isn’t the sole issue that determines outcomes.

@puffyisgood I did say ‘part of the reason’. A lot of the extra spend goes on extracurricular provision and maintaining significant facilities. The money does make a difference to the results for sure but it’s also down to the talent of the cohort vs grammars IMO.

I agree with Londongirl. ds didnt get tutored yet clearly is reasonalby smart and could get the grammars. The grammars also didnt interview which can bring out things that exams dont show. At Trinity there was an exam and interview at which the child was aksed to bring something along to talk about - its a very different approach. On the Trinity and Whitgift applications the child had to write about specific areas such as sport; dt; performing arts. The processes arent the same

It is selective:selects based on ability to pay and exam. What is the ratio 1:2 for a place?

Wilson’s is super selective , no catchment area, 1:28 kids for a place. Other independent schools Westminster, St Pauls, King’s, RGS may be very selective but they also are not super selective. Again they have 4-5 kids for 1 place.