Language GCSE

[tootiredtobeinspired]

My DD is coming to the point where she needs to choose her GCSE options. She is not sure if she wants to continue with Spanish or if she should drop it altogether (which will mean she will not have a modern language GCSE at all) to make room for other subjects.
Do you think it's important to study a language? She has no interest in taking languages at A level or above so it would only be GCSE. Do universities expect students to have a modern language GCSE? She is a very capable student so will potentially be looking to take the academic road and go to a good university eventually. Thanks.

The only university that asks for a language for their courses is UCL, I believe, but you can do it in the first semester if you don’t have it at GCSE.

I personally think it’s a shame when able kids give up a language - it shows a bit of range (and I admit I am biased as ds reading ML at uni). A friend’s dc got in to Imperial for Medicine with a language as their 4th A level because they weren’t a science one trick pony according to one of the interviewers, but if your dd doesn’t want to do it then there is no reason why she should for university entrance.

A language at gcse is compulsory at all the secondaries round here - are you sure she has the option to not take one?

Lots of schools don’t like people giving languages up as they then don’t get the English Baccalaureate. It wasn’t compulsory at ds’s school but it was made clear to him that he would be expected to do a language as he was able right across all disciplines. At that point he wanted to do STEM at uni but by the end of his GCSES he had swapped to wanting to do ML. They do change a lot as they grow up.

Schools sometimes make a language compulsory, at least for the top end of the year, because one of the things they are measured on is how many kids get the EBacc.

However it really doesn't make much difference to the individual child if they don't get the EBacc. A friend's child didn't do it, as they had a particular career in mind in year 9, and didn't have enough options to do the relevant subjects and the EBacc as well. They subsequently changed their mind, and read law at Cambridge - who obviously weren't too worried about the lack of EBacc.

Sure, it's nice to have a range of subjects, but you can't do everything.

I think it's a shame if children don't want to continue with MFL, as it is a valuable subject that opens their eyes (just a bit) to other cultures and also has links to many other disciplines.

MFL at A level (impossible without GCSE obvs) is now becoming unusual enough to make a student stand out.

That said, I would never want a student to be forced to take MFL against their will and at the expense of something they would love. And no university demands it (except for MFL) - even at UCL you can indeed take a language course in yr 1.

What would she take instead op and why?

(MFL is my subject and I taught and tutor in it btw, for full disclosure. I genuinely would rather teach a weaker student with an interest than a bright student who had been made to take it against their will).

Thanks all for the input. Her school used to make the top set take MFL but this year have said they don't have to? She achieves good grades in it (8s) but because she wants to take both history and geography she only has 2 options left so is not sure she wants to use one up with MFL. She has no particular career in mind yet just a probable leaning towards science and maths but I guess that can easily change!
I'm trying not to let my experience cloud my judgement as I was terrible at French at school and hated the lessons, however as an adult I can now appreciate what they were trying to achieve and dislike the fact I can't speak any other language. I also want to make sure she doesn't inadvertently close any doors by not doing MFL given she should actually get a good grade.

I hate languages, and am a STEM person through and through.
However much I hate them, I think narrowing down choices at 14 is a step too far, and GCSEs should encompass as broad a range of subjects as possible.
My 15 year STEM research career (I've taken a big step down now) has seen me visit twenty-something different countries. Yes, my school French and German dont go far, but it helps in all sorts of European languages, and STEM jobs dont exclude the need to communicate.

Agree with others - I very much like the idea of everyone who's 'university material' studying a modern language to at least the age of 16, I think it confers lots of nice little bits of general knowledge and worldliness, etc.

But in terms of tangible doors that will be be definitively shut, or even moved a little bit closer towards being shut, there are, when it boils down to it, very few associated with dropping all MFL's.

I will tell you that History at Ds's school is considered such a content heavy subject that they start it in year 9. With Ds1 they started after May half term but Ds2 started after Easter I believe. Therefore a whole extra term on it. Geography is the same and so doing both together for GCSE is a lot of work.

Ds chose a humanity and MFL as standard as they all have to if they are on the academic path in school. Then 2 other subjects. I would encourage subjects she enjoys as it can become soul destroying grinding away at something you dislike.

Ds ruled out those he definitely didn't want and went from there.

myown experience.
DH laways said he hated languages, hated learning french and dropped it as soon as he could. He then went on to marry me (a french woman) and is surrounded by french all day long
So what I am trying to say is that you never know what is aorund the corner.

My experience with my own dcs, now bioth doing A levels si that whatever they chose in Y9 because they like it can change a lot in those tow years. dc1 started with a love for science and maths. He is doing his A levels, still in maths and physics (plus geography) and now says he hates maths and pohysics... (still gets good grades!)
dc2 statred on a similar line but is very happy with physics and is likely to continiue in that area.
So basically it's very early days.

Finbally, my own feeloing is that NFL are essential. They give an insight in other ways of thinking and looking at the world. So for that, I think it's worth keeping at GCSE, even if she doesn't keep it afterwards.

Only UCL look for it even for non MFL degrees. However a language can add to understanding of other subjects as well as opening up options later.

UCL have recently dropped their language requirement I believe. However it’s not a rounded education not to have a MFL. I think it says more about a person if they have persevered and it is Tom early to stop at 14 - only in the UK is this ever considered. The rest of Europe wouldn’t dream of it.

If she has a real keen interest in geography and history and less in language then drop it. It was either/or in my kids school and language absolutely encouraged, but if a child had a definite interest in another subject over language (or other subject) then let them choose.

Is there not space to do history, geography and a language? Which other GCSEs is she taking?

@MrPickles73 yes there is the option to do both history, geography and MFL but that would only leave her with 1 option to do something creative (probably music) but she would also like to do ICT. I think it will basically come down to MFL or ICT.

@clary

I think it's a shame if children don't want to continue with MFL, as it is a valuable subject that opens their eyes (just a bit) to other cultures and also has links to many other disciplines.

MFL at A level (impossible without GCSE obvs) is now becoming unusual enough to make a student stand out.

That said, I would never want a student to be forced to take MFL against their will and at the expense of something they would love. And no university demands it (except for MFL) - even at UCL you can indeed take a language course in yr 1.

What would she take instead op and why?

(MFL is my subject and I taught and tutor in it btw, for full disclosure. I genuinely would rather teach a weaker student with an interest than a bright student who had been made to take it against their will).

You can take A Level without studying GCSE, one of my cousins only did French GCSE but did French and Spanish at A Level.

I'm dyslexic and just could not cope with French, the only way I got out of studying it was because I was in the CSE set (yes I'm old) and my art teacher had agreed to me studying art out side the usual groups.

My reasoning was that an O Level was better than a CSE

Then as an adult I studied BSL up to degree level.

@MrPickles73 yes there is the option to do both history, geography and MFL but that would only leave her with 1 option to do something creative (probably music) but she would also like to do ICT. I think it will basically come down to MFL or ICT.

ICT isn't a GCSE subject any more, it is computer science which counts as a science for ebacc, she should have a look at the course content.

@sashh I would only be happy to teach a student for A level MFL with no GCSE if they had knowledge from elsewhere - such as being a native speaker or having lived in the country. I have tutored a student in that position with success, but please don't encourage the belief that with no other MFL input between yr 9 and yr 12 it is possible to pick up A level.

I suppose A level ab initio is possible (after all, it's possible to pick up a language at university) but it is certainly not something that is generally offered nor to be encouraged unless there is some massive reason why the GCSE was not taken.

Agree re ICT tho - no such thing at GCSE. CS is very different. DS2 found it a challening GCSE.

Since I left school, I have never used an algebraic equation or needed to know many of the things I learned in school. However, I have used the language skill I learnt and even gone on to learn other languages more easily because of it. Your child will probably never have to use much of what she learns, but I can guarantee that at some point she'll be glad she knows Spanish.

GCSE MFL are not rigorous enough to consider it a proper language education imo. I have kids with GCSE in languages and they are pointless qualifications. They can't pick up a simple book and read it or discuss topics other than the very rigid subjects covered.

One of my children dropped MFL. He's dyslexic and struggles with writing in English never mind learning a new language even if it is phonetic and easier to learn than English.

It is a shame that subjects are dropped at 14 but as a person who is bilingual in a non-European language (so couldn't help them study for GCSE), I don't see dropping MFL as an worse than dropping Geography, Art or Music or not taking up new subjects like Business or Psychology.

I would advise your dd to check the CS course syllabus. (There's no GCSE in IT any more) My children have found it dull compared to y9 ICT lessons and not having it at GCSE won't stop her studying it at A-level or degree.

I language is pointless. Gcse is a starting point. A launch pad. It allows exploration of another culture and its not about reading books or translation.

I think music can be studied via other exams. It’s isn’t worth anything. Nearly every DC can do it! MFL shows a rounded education. Just add in music exams and you have it covered.

Both my girls did GCSE Spanish and got A*, did different A levels, went to uni and I'm sure remember very little. Definitely your DD should do the GCSEs that she is interested in. A language isn't essential.

That should have said. Language is not pointless! Very few people remember what that did for gcse if they didn’t continue study beyond it. As I said it’s about opening the mind to other cultures. It’s not all about speaking and reading. Learning takes all sorts of forms. My DDs haven’t used Physics or Chemistry since gcse but that doesn’t mean that these subjects shouldn’t be studied does it?

I agree with @TizerorFizz, GCSE language can only be a starting point. Of course even a 9 at GCSE German does not mean you can read Goethe or that you are bilingual.

But a student who has recently achieved a good GCSE grade should be able to hold a conversation in German about their hobbies, their family, their home town, social issues such as the environment and poverty. They should be able to read things in Germany, chat to staff in hotels, restaurants and museums, maybe even pick up a newspaper and tell you what the story is about.

That's all tremendously valuable in my view. And if the student wants to go on with MFL, to A level, or to go to the country, or to take some speaking classes in the evening, well GCSE is a great start.

@BananaPB you don't say when your DC took their MFL GCSEs, but if it was before 2018 then that makes a difference too. I am no apologist for the Tories, but the new spec MFL GCSE is much more rigourous, discouraging rote learning and supporting students to actually acquire language skills such as translation and spontaneous speaking.

Yes, if you don;t use it you will forget it. I took chemistry O level (old gimmer) and pretty much all I can remember is the difference between HCl and H2O - but that's because I did nothing else with it. It was still worth me studying it. Maths GCSE doesn't turn you into a top level mathematician; French GCSE doesn't make you an interpreter. But it's a start, and even if that's all, it's as worthwhile as any GCSE.

@clary
I couldn’t agree more. Great post.

Given the choice of MFL or ICT I'd chose MFL for an able child. I was talking to a senior school careers advisor and they said they no longer offer ICT as a mainstream gcse as universities don't take it seriously and you are better off with maths and physics. If she really struggles with mfl and you don't think she'll pass then choose ICT.