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Original poster

Is it possible to get really good at Maths?

55 replies

MrsCardone · 13/10/2021 06:46

My DS is looking into uni courses at the moment. The one he is interested in has a Maths requirement. It's an engineering course. He is not good at Maths, mainly because he messes around in class, being a general pain in the arse, hates his teacher, does the bare minimum of homework, etc.

However, he has shown some promise in other subjects related to engineering and it is something he is interested in, so I do want to pursue it.

Is it possible - with extra help - for him to get good at Maths? We're prepared to put the hours in to help him and call in reinforcements if necessary.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Terribleluck · 13/10/2021 08:47

Yes, you can. I was terrible and enyeded up excelling at them because I wanted to be a physicist to be an astronomer.

FAQs · 13/10/2021 08:49

@MrsCardone I was your son, messed around in Maths class, was a total pain, when I eventually went to Uni, I was diagnosed as Dyscalculia. I’d never heard of it, only messed around because I genuinely struggled and teachers, parents presumed I was not working hard enough.

TizerorFizz · 13/10/2021 10:41

I’m sorry to be a negative but Engineering isn’t a great choice. Maths is vital and he doesn’t sound bothered enough to do it at university level where there won’t be one to one tutors. He needs physics too probably. Engineering is a serious discipline and I would be more realistic. DH employs engineers and they do have to be naturally good at maths and be able to apply their knowledge to find engineering solutions. I’m really not sure this is the best career for your DS.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2021 11:07

However, he has shown some promise in other subjects related to engineering and it is something he is interested in

Which subjects are these - someone might be able to come up with alternative ideas if he can't turn his maths around with the support you're planning on.

Original poster
MrsCardone · 13/10/2021 11:11

Thanks @TizerorFizz and @ErrolTheDragon. He is interested in mechanics and design. Actually Industrial Design is his second choice.

OP posts:
MinesAPintOfTea · 13/10/2021 11:13

It can be done. And even if he can’t get good enough for a-level maths and an engineering degree, being competent at maths will put him in a good place for most engineering-type careers.

My brother didn’t get his a levels, but progressed fast in his no qualifications required manufacturing job “because the boss trusts me to count right”

Try a maths tutor, and coaching him in skills to focus in class.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2021 11:20

Supporting him to whatever his potential is in maths is likely to be helpful to him anyway, but it sounds like the art&design side of things may be a good alternative. Presumably he's looking at something like this ?

www.lboro.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/a-z/industrial-design/

NotDavidTennant · 13/10/2021 11:20

It depends whether he is messing around because he's not good at maths or if he's not good at maths because he's messing around.

Twizbe · 13/10/2021 11:21

Poor behaviour in class could also be because the level of maths is too easy for him and he gets bored.

My mum is a maths teacher and she's always said that the key to maths is repetition. The more you use a formula or work out a problem the easier it gets. The basics stay the same the numbers just change.

He can get better, but he needs to put the time and energy into practicing.

Original poster
MrsCardone · 13/10/2021 11:29

@ErrolTheDragon Yes, that’s the one.
@Twizbe That’s good to know and makes me think we can get him there with a lot of practice.

OP posts:
politics4me · 13/10/2021 11:36

Perhaps you could find someone who is an engineer to explain and illustrate how they use maths in their work.
If he sees relevance it might 'click' and motivate him.

LonginesPrime · 13/10/2021 11:45

Yes, of course it's possible to get good at Maths - it's just like learning anything else, and takes time and effort, but with the right conditions, of course he can improve.

That said, the 'right conditions' for someone with newly-diagnosed ADHD in a class with peers messing about is highly unlikely to be conducive to learning for DS, especially if he feels he's not great at Maths already.

He likely needs private tuition (or at least some 1:1 time with an LSA ) to build his confidence and knowledge, and hopefully to help him progress to a class that's more conducive to learning.

Does he have an EHCP? If not, I'd apply for an assessment ASAP. It takes ages.

And I'd also keep in mind that it can take a while for people to learn how to learn, especially with ADHD, and so he might not be ready for the GCSE next year if he's still getting to grips with all the foundation-level maths he likely didn't fully grasp in primary school because of undiagnosed ADHD.

I would start now in getting him extra support, reading about working memory, executive function, maths anxiety, fixed vs growth mindset, etc, and accept that he might take longer than average to get to grips with maths (to fill in any gaps he's missed) but that he can get there eventually if he genuinely wants to.

blairresignationjam · 13/10/2021 12:06

I'm going to say definitely not. My husband is a mechanical design engineer (subsea). Maths is at the heart of the entire degree and the job. At work he often works on calcs for months solidly. Pages and pages of calcs. Or mathcad coding. I'd compare it to programming in that you either get it, or you don't. He'll struggle if he isn't a natural.

roses2 · 13/10/2021 12:30

I did an engineering degree. There is a huge amount of maths work required for the course - at many points I felt like I was doing a maths degree not engineering.

If he stops messing around and focusses, is he naturally good at maths?

inferiorCatSlave · 13/10/2021 12:32

My mum is a maths teacher and she's always said that the key to maths is repetition. The more you use a formula or work out a problem the easier it gets. The basics stay the same the numbers just change.

I think this is very true especially at GCSE level.

Honestly I'd get a tutor and look at some of the on-line maths sites - they can be really good for extra practise to bed ideas down - and see if he can move up groups over next year or so.

I assume he'll need to be in the higher groups to be allowed to do higher GCSE papers and get the better grades - so you will need to talk to the school as well. Even if he doens't go on to A-level a decent maths GCSE grade is helpful going forward.

MakingTheBestOfIt · 13/10/2021 12:36

Is it a GCSE or A level he needs?

I have friends who tutor. The consensus seems to be that most people, some learning disabilities aside of course, can get a good maths GCSE if enough time and effort is applied. A Level seems to be a different kettle of fish. The workload is a lot higher and natural ability, or at least a super secure grasp of the maths up to that point, is more important.

Fluffypastelslippers · 13/10/2021 12:39

@MakingTheBestOfIt

Is it a GCSE or A level he needs?

I have friends who tutor. The consensus seems to be that most people, some learning disabilities aside of course, can get a good maths GCSE if enough time and effort is applied. A Level seems to be a different kettle of fish. The workload is a lot higher and natural ability, or at least a super secure grasp of the maths up to that point, is more important.

He would need to be able to do it at Uni, so both really.

CuckooCuckooClock · 13/10/2021 12:47

He can certainly get better at maths but I would think again about engineering. As pp have said, engineering is really just applied maths for the most part. All the engineers I know absolutely loved maths at school (and still do). I don’t know about industrial design but an engineering degree would be pretty grim if you didn’t love maths.

spudjulia · 13/10/2021 12:47

I'm a maths teacher. In my experience (and also backed up by research), by a vast proportion, it's the kids with 8/9 at GCSE who will get the higher grades at A Level, 7s will need to work really hard to get a grade, and I mean REALLY hard. If they haven't covered the grade 8/9 algebra at GCSE (which seems unlikely in a bottom set where the child is messing around), then it's a real uphill struggle to catch up with the algebra required for A Level.

I think you should ask yourself honestly if your son is ready and/or able to put in the huge effort it would require. It will be a struggle, one which a couple of hours tutoring a week won't solve, for the next 3 years. Is your son prepared to do that?

Going on statistics and gut, I'd say you're going to be wasting your time and money. But I don't know you or your son and you could buck the trend.

To answer you question, yes you can get better at maths. It's like playing the piano, the more you practice, the better you will become. But even so, most people can become competent piano players, not all have the extra gift to be a uniquely talented player.

MakingTheBestOfIt · 13/10/2021 12:48

In which case, from conversations we’ve had, the friend who tutors to A Level is reluctant to take on A Level maths students who didn’t manage a high GCSE pass.

I’d say go for a tutor for GCSE and see what he can achieve. A good solid foundation in maths will never be wasted. My DD had maths tutoring for years 4 and 5 of primary school as we felt she’d not quite grasped some of the core concepts. It caught her up and she has managed to stay in the top maths group in high school under her own steam. Perhaps the OP’s son is in a similar situation and will find it all clicks with a bit of extra work.

MinesAPintOfTea · 13/10/2021 13:10

@blairresignationjam

I'm going to say definitely not. My husband is a mechanical design engineer (subsea). Maths is at the heart of the entire degree and the job. At work he often works on calcs for months solidly. Pages and pages of calcs. Or mathcad coding. I'd compare it to programming in that you either get it, or you don't. He'll struggle if he isn't a natural.
I agree he’s unlikely to jump from bottom-set maths to fluid modelling. There are other areas of engineering which are less maths-heavy though. And if he wants an engineering/industrial design type career then the better he is at maths, the further he can get.

If he has motivation now to focus on his maths skills, use that! It will give him more options.

GivenchyDahhling · 13/10/2021 13:24

GCSE probably isn’t an issue. Most kids like your DS manage to buckle down and do alright in the exam.

However, many engineering degrees don’t just ask for maths but also want further maths A Levels, at top grades. The statistics are very clear - you are statistically very unlikely to get a top A Level maths grade without at least an 8, if not a 9 at GCSE. In my experience (maths teacher and now head of maths), the pupils who succeed by working incredibly hard but without natural talent and interest in the subject exist; but are a tiny minority. Lots of hard workers who scrape a 7 at GCSE drop out/fail to get a grade. A Level maths is difficult and demanding.

inferiorCatSlave · 13/10/2021 13:26

A good solid foundation in maths will never be wasted. My DD had maths tutoring for years 4 and 5 of primary school as we felt she’d not quite grasped some of the core concepts. It caught her up and she has managed to stay in the top maths group in high school under her own steam.

We did similar with on-line sites but it was same to fill in gaps and bed down concepts we felt they hadn't grasped - had the same - they've all managed to stay in top sets at secondary and eldest got high grade and went on to A-level.

We were told they weren't mathematically minded - but they were shaky on fundamentals. Now they're rock solid on basics and we get told they are naturally gifted at maths Hmm. I don't think either is true they've worked hard and done a lot of additional practise - we'll see how A-levels go - older two both looking at maths A-levels.

DD1 ideas of careers have evolved a lot between y10 and Y12 - as her enjoyment of subjects changed with time and research - DS have shifted slightly and he needs maths which does help motivate him.

I think it's possible you can improve maths and possibly widen his options a bit more than if you do nothing - does depend on him doing the work and putting in the effort.

WheresTheHedge · 13/10/2021 13:44

Poor behaviour in class could also be because the level of maths is too easy for him and he gets bored.
Doubtful if he is in lowest set. He'd be in a higher set if he was naturally good at maths because he'd hate to be bored in the low set.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2021 13:46

However, many engineering degrees don’t just ask for maths but also want further maths A Levels, at top grades.

While that's true of some, it's not the case for all, and I think the OP said the course her DS was particularly interested in wanted a B in maths. That's still undoubtedly a big hill to climb from his current position but it's a misrepresentation which probably puts off quite a lot of students to imply that 'many' want high grades in FM. Well, sure, nowhere would mind it but it's a minority of the hundreds of engineering options across unis and specialisms which require A stars in Maths and FM.

If you think about design, there are presumably a range of skills - from the more art&design end, the hands-on makers, through users of CAD software to the few who actually write it and do the underlying research.