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Secondary education

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Original poster

Alternate methods in maths

34 replies

TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 11:30

DD is re-sitting maths GCSE as she missed y11.

New college teacher is teaching different methods for things DD can already do and she is finding it confusing & stressful. (College is already highly stressful for her - huge backstory).

So, should I say it is fine to ignore teacher, or what?

OP posts:
sashh · 12/10/2021 12:15

She should talk to the teacher, for GCSE maths there are at least three ways to do most things, if I was teaching her I wouldn't worry about the method used as long as she was showing her working and getting the right answer.

Original poster
TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 17:52

I have found out what they were doing - percentages.

The teacher was teaching the shortcuts first and then presumably at some point will move on to the generalised method.

Now I know my DD would have no hope remembering 7 or whatever shortcuts, because we have tried before and she can't, which is why we focused on one general method. (I have regularly shown her why 50% is 1/2 etc, but the shortcuts just don't stick.)

So my revised questions are:

Why teach a bunch of shortcuts to DC who by definition aren't great at maths, thus giving them a collection of apparently unrelated facts, instead of teaching just the one method?

Why teach shortcuts before the proper explanation?

Are there DC who can remember and apply the shortcuts without being able to do the general method? For mine it is just more things to learn...
I'm hoping there are because otherwise I can't see why they would do such a thing. (DD1 had exactly the same issue in primary!)

Hoping to be enlightened.

OP posts:
NotAnotherPushyMum · 12/10/2021 17:55

Generally kids who don’t ‘get’ maths do better learning the shortcuts and tricks because they don’t need to understand the maths to do it.

Orangejuicemarathoner · 12/10/2021 17:58

maybe she should not be in a resit class. Resit classes are for people who have done the exam, know the content, but have narrowly missed the grade they require.

Maybe she should be doing an easier qualification, or be in a GCSE class for people who have not done the course before.

How did she come to miss year 11?

If she is struggling with percentages, maybe GCSE is not for her

noblegiraffe · 12/10/2021 18:03

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by 'shortcuts' and 'general method' for finding percentages. Can you give examples?

purplesequins · 12/10/2021 18:03

if she gets on with the methods she knows - ignore.

my dc changed school (and country) and different methods are tought. some suit my dc better than others and they are encouraged to fo whatever works for them.

Original poster
TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 18:12

To answer questions:

  • she missed y11 because of MH issues, but was recovered enough to sit some assessments on limited revision at the end and got a 3.
  • she doesn't struggle with %s, she can do them fine, she just couldn't follow what the teacher was doing wrt what I call shortcuts.
  • by shortcuts I mean being taught without context that to find 25% you divide by 4, things like that.
  • by general method I mean to find y% of Z you do y/100 x Z (or Z/100 x y, whichever floats your boat).

I mean obviously 25/100 = 1/4 = divide by 4 but over the years DD has proved herself incapable of remember that alongside 20% = divide by 5 (or worse divide by 10 and double) plus the 1% and the 10% and other radoms some teachers like to throw in.

For context, DD struggles to remember which is left and which is right, but can do basic trig or factorising quadratics.

OP posts:
user1495884211 · 12/10/2021 18:21

@Orangejuicemarathoner

maybe she should not be in a resit class. Resit classes are for people who have done the exam, know the content, but have narrowly missed the grade they require.

Maybe she should be doing an easier qualification, or be in a GCSE class for people who have not done the course before.

How did she come to miss year 11?

If she is struggling with percentages, maybe GCSE is not for her

She probably has no option. English and maths are compulsory alongside college courses for students who haven't already passed.
Original poster
TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 18:25

She has no option. Because she got 3s she has to be in the GCSE resit class this year. (Even though I'd rather leave it this year to let her continue to recover more first). Before she was ill she was expected a 5, maybe a 6 on a good day.

OP posts:
Orangejuicemarathoner · 12/10/2021 18:25

She probably has no option. English and maths are compulsory alongside college courses for students who haven't already passed

There is normally a lower level course more suitable to candidates struggling with percentages, which have to be the easiest part of the GCSE.

Seriously, if she is struggling with this, she is not suited to GCSE

noblegiraffe · 12/10/2021 18:28

Why teach a bunch of shortcuts to DC who by definition aren't great at maths, thus giving them a collection of apparently unrelated facts, instead of teaching just the one method?

Tbf those methods are generally taught from primary school and I would expect even bottom sets to be familiar with them.

They're the expected method for the non-calc paper. Y/100 x Z (or converting the percentage to a decimal and multiplying) is the expected method for the calculator paper - I'd be surprised to see any student using that on the non-calc paper.

Original poster
TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 18:37

Thanks noble .

DD has used the shortcuts, but they definitely don't stick as well as the main method. One of the issues we have is that some of these things seem to be more needed on the foundation paper than they were on the higher one.

(My main problem at the moment is making sure she stays in college and not letting maths lessons freak her out so much she starts being too anxious to go in at all.)

I still don't get why you would teach/revise them without showing the derivation though? I suspect if that had been done first DD would have been a lot happier.

OP posts:
ChildrenGrowingUpTooFast · 12/10/2021 18:47

I’m confused why you think those are short cuts. They are fundamental about percentages. They do them in year 6 and my DC are learning them that why.

Original poster
TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 19:01

I think they are shortcuts because they are!
You wouldn't learn them if they weren't.

But if you learn them without clearly understanding and remembering why they work then they are just 'extra' facts to learn.

To be fair, this is probably only an issue because DD has been ill and is still recovering, very unconfident in general, very anxious and is very very rusty on her maths (and has various SEN).

OP posts:
HeddaGarbled · 12/10/2021 19:03

The method your daughter has memorised suits students who learn best with formal written methods. Lots of students can’t remember these or get them muddled.

Understanding equivalencies (25% = 1/4 etc) can be very helpful for some students and IMO is a good indicator of real understanding rather than the ability to remember and apply an algorithm without quite knowing why it works.

These strategies can also make some calculations easier to do quickly which can be helpful on timed exam papers.

With regard to your daughter’s confusion, the line I’d take is ‘give it a go, see if it works for you, if it doesn’t, use your preferred method’.

Caaarrrl · 12/10/2021 19:06

I'm a year 6 teacher and this is a common way of teaching percentages for mental maths.

Plantstrees · 12/10/2021 19:08

@ChildrenGrowingUpTooFast

I’m confused why you think those are short cuts. They are fundamental about percentages. They do them in year 6 and my DC are learning them that why.
As an ex maths teacher I agree. Those are not short cuts but fundamental principles to the understanding of fractions and percentages. This stuff is normally taught in junior school so shouldn't be causing an issue and is definitely not a short cut. Your daughter's issue with these method shows a lack of understanding of what she is doing. Using the standard method you describe is learning by rote.

I use a set of fraction towers so the children can see the equivalent fractions and percentages to develop a better understanding. Maybe they would help.

Original poster
TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 19:15

Hedda I think you are right, DD prefers slower formal written methods. She does understand them, but she has processing difficulties which makes recall of too many facts quickly hard (also word recall, so eg the 'arms' of the tree rather than branches.) So we have preferred to focus on clear strategies with multiple applications rather than trying to remember 'faster' methods.

I think my issues are anxiety for an anxious DD, tied up with not 'knowing' the college maths department and them not knowing her. (I had a lot of faith in DD's old maths teachers and DD made a lot of progress with them.)

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 12/10/2021 19:21

I wouldn't tell her to ignore the teacher, as that's bound to come back to bite her later and will only undermine her confidence further.

I would just talk to the teacher about it and explain about her SEN and the difficulties that she has with working memory, exec function, etc that prevents her from remembering this method, but explain that she has another method and perhaps suggest that the teacher sits down with her to go through her method.

Then the teacher will at least be aware of her difficulties and might even be able to suggest some helpful methods for other areas if she understands why DD is struggling to recall certain methods.

It might also be worth speaking to the SENCO too.

Original poster
TeenMinusTests · 12/10/2021 19:21

It's not the understanding, it's the remembering and recall and the teaching order.
But clearly my DD is in a relatively unusual situation.

Interestingly DD1 also struggled with what I refer to as shortcuts until she was shown properly why they worked, and then she was able to remember them.

OP posts:
Hercisback · 12/10/2021 19:23

It's about her being able to understand the equivalence between 25% and a quarter, therefore you divide by 4. This isn't a trick or a crazy method.

HeddaGarbled · 12/10/2021 19:24

Back in the day when I was first learning to work with students with dyslexia etc, we used to talk about ‘inchworms’ and ‘grasshoppers’. I’m sure that’s an outdated concept now, but the idea was that inchworms preferred to work through maths problems step by step, whilst grasshoppers would make intuitive leaps. You can teach inchworm strategies to a grasshopper and vice versa but they’ll still have an underlying preference.

Hercisback · 12/10/2021 19:24

This would be taught in primary so not sure what your beef is there.

ByThePool2021 · 12/10/2021 19:28

Where I work our yr11s get 6hours of maths lessons a week. Our sixth form resists get 2hours of lessons a week. There’s a lot to learn and not a lot of time to teach it. And tbf, if she doesn’t understand by 16, she probably won’t understand by 17 and it’s just about getting these kids to get that golden grade 4.
Obviously we’d love to take our time and really explain and get the students to grasps the reasoning, but sometimes what they really need is like 5-10years out in normal society and seeing how the maths is applied to every day for the lightbulbs to click but the gov insist on resists until pass so they don’t have that opportunity

LynetteScavo · 12/10/2021 19:46

Wow, not many posters on this thread have much faith in your DD @TeenMinusTests!

I would suggest she just goes along with the teacher, smile and nod - if she can already do percentages another way just practice those at home. I know it's extra work, but making sure she's secure to answer the questions in the exam is the most important thing.

If she can get a grade 3 she can get a 4 within the next two years. Just make sure she doesn't get worked up about it so it affects her too much. There's no rush to pass and she will get there.

I went from an F to a D to an E to a C while I was at 6th form so it can be done

Did someone ask why she'd missed the Y11 exam? Has that poster totally missed that we've had a pandemic, this year group have missed lots of GCSE teaching and didn't take a final exam? Grin Not all teachers bumped up grades!