How do you know if your child is 'grammar school material'?

[UndertheCedartree]

With the lack of parent and teacher meetings over the last year and a half I really don't know where my DD is. Her last school report said she had a lot of potential. How do I tell if it is worth doing 11+ prep?

I think the test is whether she does independent work outside of school. So does she do her homework willingly? Does she read a lot? Does she like non-fiction books? Does she like being tested e.g. spellings and sums? If you suggested learning a lot of Capital Cities for instance, would she be happy with that or complain?

What year is your DD? I have a year 4 DS and I’m not sure either. We have a virtual parents meeting tomorrow so I may just ask his teacher. Not sure if it’s too early to tell at this point though. I have a DD at grammar school & I asked her teacher at the end of year 4 if she was suitable.

Where are you? I live in East Kent, where approximately 25% of children will go to Grammar. In other parts of the country, you’d be looking at 5%, or even less.

I took mine to a tutor who I knew had good success rates and only took a certain number of kids in each year. She did an assessment with her and told me if she was willing to take her on. I know of others who were told no.

But she didn't do any of the things Hollow mentions, still doesn't (Year 10). I just felt she was genuinely inquisitive, a decent reader (just never reads for pleasure), didn't seem to struggle with maths concepts (although her times tables are still appalling) and generally bright. She's never going to be top but she's middleish for most subjects and that's fine by me.

I'd say my DD is similar to yours, @motherofawhirlwind . She is in year 8 and was very bright (top sets, found everything easy and "boring" ) in primary school. Did an IQ test just after missing the 11+ and got in on appeal (IQ on 99th percentile) but she is coasting in grammar school. Bottom sets, has a nice bunch of friends and is happy enough. Even the girls in the bottom sets do well at this school, so I'm not bothered if she isn't!

Exactly @MackenCheese - even bottom sets are largely predicted 7's at GCSE and they all do the advanced papers in science etc. Happier in maths now they're set as she's not bottom and so can't worry about being the worst now! Mine struggles with friendships but she would anywhere. I think in a comp she'd still coast, but at a lower level, if you follow me.

Depends where in the country you are. If you are in Bucks then she should be in the top 20-30% of her class. Does she pick things up quickly, enjoy reading, genuinely inquisitive, like school, in top sets etc?

If you are in an area where you opt in for grammar tests or looking at super selectives with no catchment then the bar is set MUCH higher.

I think a huge part of it is about attitude - does she enjoy learning, is she naturally curious and is she willing to work hard? But obviously needs to be bright as well. So does she tend to get full marks in tests (or close)? Does she grasp concepts quickly? I “just knew” DD was grammar school material but as she’s just done GCSEs and come out with amazing results I can see that’s because she is “near the top of grammar school” material.

Does she want to go to grammar? Because if she doesn’t and/or isn’t interested in putting in the work required to practice for 11+ or to work hard when she is there, then don’t do it. I think DS could have got in (not as clearcut as DD) but he wasn’t interested so didn’t try for it. In hindsight, though his current school isn’t good, it was still the right decision as he would have found the pace too pressurised.

@HollowTalk - thank you. Her school doesn't have any compulsory homework however she is often quite keen to do some homework and enjoys reading. She doesn't read much non-fiction but I think she would if I suggested it. I will have to ask about capital cities!

@TCMcK - she's just started Y5. I never got to speak to her Y4 teacher. I have a parent and teacher meeting at the beginning of November so I will speak to her teacher then.

@Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies - Southend area so I think more chance to get in.

You can show your DD the virtual tours of the prospective schools and see how willing she is to go in those schools. I believe any child if willing to do something, can become capable as well. Capability will never become an issue if the child is willing to participate in the entrance competition. Together then you can prepare a timetable for preparation and follow it. Preparation wont have to be orrenous. Best of Luck!!

@motherofawhirlwind - thank you. My DD isn't there with all her timetables yet.

@Zodlebud - I have no idea about sets - not sure her school does this. She likes school, likes reading, very inquisitive. During lockdown home schooling I would say she picked up English easily but struggled more so with Maths although this seemed to be the same with all her friends. At school they do mental arithmetic every day and she told me she got 100 per cent on Friday.

@AliMonkey - my eldest is home educated (due to Autism) and I definitely would have 'just known' he could pass the 11+ but then of course I know his education inside out. My DD enjoys learning and is very curious. She will work hard at times but other times just wants to play with her dolls or Animal Crossing! She wants to go for the 11+ but perhaps because all her friends are. I'm not sure she understands what a Grammar school is. She is willing to put work in for the 11+. We also have comprehensives that are partially selective that are another option.

@annaseal - looking at virtual tours is a great idea, thank you.

I could have asked the same question. My Dd2 is a similar age, just started Y5. She reads loads, was the top reader in her year last year - they do some scheme where you register each book and they count up how many words you've read. But she's not as confident at Maths. Dd1 has just started grammar school and I always thought she had a good chance of getting in (we're in London so it's quite competitive) but Dd2's maths is definitely weaker. She's keen to give it a go though so I'm going to get a Maths tutor for a few months and then reassess in the spring whether we think she has a realistic chance. In a way I think both children should have the same opportunities (although Dd1 only started tutoring in the summer of Y5). But then I also don't want Dd2 to be out of her depth at secondary school. It's tricky to know but think if your daughter is keen, it's worth having a go.

You have to ask yourself questions like whether your child picks up new concepts faster than others, loves learning for the sake of it, reads a lot, loves intellectual challenges such as puzzles, has a good attention span, plays a musical instrument to a high standard.

Just aa an aside: you can still fail the 11+ even if you actually are grammar school
Material. My DD got all 8s and 9s in her GCSEs and 4x A star at A-Level and failed the 11+.

I would also not just discount comprehensive schools if you have decent ones around.

DD's Y6 cohort was the one in years where no child went to a grammar school despite several having potential and were classed as "should do the 11+". In all cases the parents decided the normal secondary was able to support high achievers and the children are now earmarekd for high GCSEs.

DD would have crumbled under the pressure of the tests, so you may need to take these things into account as well. A friend went the 11+ route, the girl didn't score high enough and they had months of frustration from mum and daughter about the "failure". It took lots of talking from a no-nonsense family member to get them back on track.

As others have said, it depends crucially on where you live. There's no such thing as a national GS standard or national GS material.

At one extreme you have Northern Ireland - around 45% of kids go to GS, so the criteria is 'be above average', and, with heavy tutoring etc, that almost becomes 'don't have special needs'.

At another extreme you have North London, where it's barely an exaggeration to say that all GS's fit into the 'super selective' category - to reasonably expect to get in from a most primary schools your child would need to be at the highest attainment level in his or her class, maybe the highest in his or her year group.

In other words, you need to ask someone who knows the secondaries in your specific area well to get a sensible answer to your question.

One of my dds passed, one we didn’t enter. I just knew from an early age one was far more engaged with school work than the other was. She had a reading age of 16 by age 9, whereas my other dd’s was 10.5 at age 9. Huge difference! She also always, without fail, got 100% on her spelling tests & put the work in, but my younger dd would average about 7, which I don’t think is enough.
It’s not enough to just be ‘top table’, as depends on the rest of the class. We are in an all-grammar area & out of 70 in my eldest’s year, 7 went - so 10%.
Try some of the work books you can buy - if she races through those with no issues then I’d say go for it, if she resists or struggles, it probably isn’t for her. Good luck!

@HollowTalk

I think the test is whether she does independent work outside of school. So does she do her homework willingly? Does she read a lot? Does she like non-fiction books? Does she like being tested e.g. spellings and sums? If you suggested learning a lot of Capital Cities for instance, would she be happy with that or complain?

This seems like a strange and unrelated set of characteristics!

DD got into a super-selective grammar in London, and loathed primary homework, has never willingly read a non-fiction book; she would probably have wept with sheer boredom if I'd suggested she learn a load of capital cities! She did very well on spelling and maths tests at primary but didn't enjoy them at all. Luckily her secondary experience so far has featured zero spelling tests and not that much arithmetic. She did and does read a lot, though.

Capital cities was just an example! I meant does she enjoy learning new things and being tested on them?

You raise an interesting point here! Because DD absolutely LOVES learning but not learning facts like capital cities or whatever. What she actually likes about learning is understanding things.

One doesn't negate the other!