How far do you go for education?

[schoolhelp22]

I am stressing about secondary school applications. Our situation; in a county that doesn't do catchment, we have 6 schools to choose from. Our 2 nearest ones are 'outstanding' and incredibly difficult to get into due to lack of catchment rules and admission criteria, 1000 applications to 180 places, they take 50% of places from neighbouring town. After that and sibling link etc there are very few spaces. Infuriating! The second outstanding is equally as popular (although does only take from our town) has an excellent STEM programme and does an engineering GCSE, DS is very keen on engineering/STEM subjects.

We can only make 3 choices, so if we want to put the 2 outstanding down (which I really do, even though it's a lottery- literally, computer selected) we need to tread very carefully with the 3rd choice.

The next best school has amazing data, great reputation, in a beautiful area (much nicer than our town ha) but it doesn't have a 6th form and is £1000 a year on a bus. My son LOVED this school. But we are lower priority for this one due to not going to a feeder school, it's oversubscribed but I do know many kids local to us that go there.

There are 2 mediocre schools that would be much easier to get him to (although not really walking distance). He would get in no problem in the first round of applications (but would struggle if the worst happened and we got the 6th school and wanted to back track). I wouldn't cry if he got one of these, but I'd be disappointed knowing what else is available in the area.

The 6th choice is a horrendous school, special measures, 25% persistent absence. I would be devastated if we got this school.

So my two worries are:

1. If I put the 3 best schools mentioned up the top, they are all oversubscribed and we don't have priority for any of them. We risk getting none of our choices and almost certainly would get the horrendous school. But I don't want to lose an opportunity to get into the 3 top schools if that makes sense, I want us to be in the running for each.
2. This is more personal, but would you pay £100 pcm and send your child to a school 18 miles away to get them a better education? I'm not worried about friends as 35% of the school do actually come from our town, but just worried I'm being a bit of a snob and making life more difficult for myself sending him to a school further away when he will probably do just fine in a mediocre school that is closer. But I feel I should do more for him than a school I think he'll do fine in if that makes sense...but DH and I do have quite stressful careers so equally don't want to make our lives too difficult.

I think I just needed to get that off my chest, but any thoughts and opinions welcome. Or indeed shared stress from your own situation!

Oh wow sorry so much longer than I intended, I feel better for writing it down ha.

I would put down

1. Your favourite out of first two
2. The commute
3. Preferred of okish two

Maybe swap options 1&2 round depending on preference

£100 a month... depends on family budget really. For us it would be OK for one, bit more of a struggle for second child (will you need to pay for travel to other schools?)

Thanks for your reply. Yes that's what I'm wondering we should do, my son doesn't actually like the look of the nearest outstanding school, it has a very different ethos to other schools, they treat it like work, no playtime etc. But it's one of the best state schools in the county, nationally even I think, has a very good reputation. It feels crazy to not try to get in especially as it's just down the road. Then the other outstanding school has a curriculum that would really suit my son. I just wish we could make 4 choices, it would be easy then.

In terms of cost, we can afford it although not ideal, I was looking forward to not having to pay wraparound care but then we'd start paying more with a bus ha, we have another child but as there isn't a sixth form they'd only overlap by 2 years.

Unless I was so very rural that there was no other option, I wouldn't even consider a school 18 miles away.

It doesn't sound as if you do live rurally OP, so how realistic are your chances with the far away school?

For us, an 18-mile radius would include about 20-30 schools. We live in a small city for context. The journey would take at least an hour each way. Both dh and I had long journeys to school and found it was very difficult to make friends and see them. I know it would be easier now but still not great.

If I were you, I would put the two nearest ones first and second, then your preferred mediocre school third.

@clary sorry it's 10 miles, 18 minute car journey (according to Google maps, more in a bus obviously)

I think it's because if we don't get the 2 nearest schools he's going to need help getting to school either way, so by my logic may as well travel a bit further to a better school.

If you/your son are not keen on the nearest school, then don't put it on the form just because it has a fantastic reputation.
Then you could put other outstanding/bus school and one of the "mediocre" ones as a banker?

I think the ethos of a school, the way they operate run their day, actually teach etc is just as important. If your DC isn't happy at school because of how it is run, it doesn't matter how outstanding it is, your DC won't perform to his full potential.

If you don't think a school will suit your DC in terms of methods, subjects etc, don't put it down.

I like the school and its ethos, I understand what they're doing, reducing chance for bullying and more time for scheduled activities and tutor time etc. Things like not having a school bell to teach independence, they're treated as adults. My son has just latched onto "no playtimes" I think most children would be turned off by that if they heard it for the first time, and 4 weeks for summer holidays (every other break is 2 weeks). So I understand why as a child that is daunting, but do think he'd do well in the school.

Just to add we are going to the 'mediocre' schools tours next week and the second outstanding school so will absolutely given my son the opportunity to see them and discuss with me. Unfortunately the outstanding close school is only virtual and it was very much for the parents, which I know says something in itself.

Yh redsky has it perhaps.

Though even 10 miles away would be too far to possibly gain a place where I live *unless school was under subscribed). But you say distance is not considered at all?

How far away are the mediocre schools? FWIW my secondary commute inc walking both ends was 45 mins even tho it was about seven miles away. So bear in mind that an 18-min drive will translate into a longer bys and walk.

So the school that's further away does its admission criteria by location (different county) after feeder schools, as it's quite a rural school I think that's why so many people from our town still manage to get in (35% of the school is town kids) but it is oversubscribed overall and we are the other side of town which doesn't help (but do know people who've gotten in on my estate).

So mediocre school 1 is 2.2 miles, about 45 mins walk apparently, I'd be a bit apprehensive about him biking as it's busy roads, bus was recently cancelled. Mediocre school 2 I think I prefer more although data isn't good (and is required improvement vs the other mediocre being "good") is 4 miles the opposite side of town but they provide a free bus.

For distance, check exactly what each commute means.

DD has a 90 minute commute each way for secondary, but an hour of that is spent on one train where she is guaranteed a seat and wifi, and the second train is also a guaranteed seat. The connection is easy and the walk at either end is extremely short and safe.

She can also get her homework done on the train, so by the time she gets home her time is her own. School runs loads of after school activities and trains are frequent enough and late enough that she is completely independent on that front. No catchment, so doesn't miss out on local friends.

A commute like that is in many ways easy than a 45 minute walk, or a 10 minute walk, 20 minutes bus, 5 minutes walk type commute where you can't get anything else done at the same time. Or a commute where there is a 30 minute bus, but if you miss that one or want to stay late for drama or sport then you need a parent taxi to get home.

We had very specific things we were after in a school - I looked at loads and my order post-visit was definitely not the order they were in based on stats and the websites.

Your 3rd preference must be a school where you are certain that you will be offered a place on the first round. So this will need to be one of the "mediocre" schools. If you list the 3 "best" schools there is a risk that if you don't meet the criteria for these schools you could be offered the really awful school.
If I was in your position I would miss out school 1 personally.

I would look carefully at furthest distance offered on the 10 mile one. Just BC you see people locally going there, means little, could be LAC, they could have moved, could be SEN and named that school.

If it is done on distance and is oversubscribed its v risky. I would deffo put a mediocre safe bet down. Then decide which two of the three faves you like the best. 2.2 miles btwvis less than 45 mins walk. And the walk is relaxing and sociable in a way that I never found a bus journey to be.

sorry for typos, iPad hates me

It definitely is possible to get into the 10 mile school as 35% of the school population is from the town, that's why the school runs its own private bus. It is usually in people's top 3 and I know many will be/were same priority as us as I've asked plenty! (some go to a feeder school on the edge of town, can't tell you how much I regret not trying to get into that school!)

I know you're all right, I just really don't know if I can bring myself to not but them 3 down. I'm hoping one of the mediocre schools impresses me next week.

This may not all make sense (thanks covid) but we are in v similar situation - ds1 has just started year 7 of the further away, out of catchment, no bus from our village so I have to take him to the next village along where he gets the bus (£60 a month), school.

I based my decision (had a surprisingly useless DH on this front, but that's a whole other thread) on:

1. Catchment / closer schools did not have sixth forms so no chance of A Levels there, nor of the better standard of teaching trickling down (and it's true: ds's year 7 history teacher is also the A level teacher)
2. One has excellent "GCSE" results but when you look at the actual subject options most of them are btecs, which are great for some, but to me closed doors for higher ed
3. Most people round here let their kids choose and they go where their mates go: I chose based on destination of leavers, the small number of people he did know who also applied to the one I liked. Apathy towards education is a bit of an issue here (small, no industry-left type town). Oh one of the alternatives was an 'outstanding' academy but the feedback I got from anyone in education was that it isn't really that outstanding and treats the kids very strictly and most of them hate it
4. Destination of leavers for the college that the non-sixth form kids go to, doesn't stretch far outside the immediate local area and we'd like our son to explore a bit (we are Not From Round Here)
5. Er that's it. So DS is further away and it's a bit of a faff for me but I also changed our youngest's primary choice to the same village where the eldest gets the bus from, it's a feeder school for where DS1 is and logistically makes everything kind of make sense.

Hope that helps, it probably doesn't!

@Neighneigh your apathy to education comment rang very true for me, our town is very similar. It's one of the reasons I like the put of town school as it's in a different area. Although sadly there is no sixth form and I hadn't really thought about quality of teaching trickling down.

I will have a look at the school leavers info and delve into the stats a little more for all the schools.

I think my biggest fear overall is "the wrong crowd" and I know the wrong is much more likely to be at the mediocre schools, you only have to look at the crime stats in the neighbourhoods, there was a fatal stabbing in our town this year of a 16 year old and they went to one of the mediocre schools. I'm not so worried about my eldest, but my youngest is very easily led. It terrifies me.

@schoolhelp22 it is hard when you care so much - I know that's harsh because everyone cares about their children but I had some really shocking discussions with other parents over school choice. I mean literally a mum didn't choose one because the bus didn't stop near enough (no special needs, rugby playing child!). I'm lucky in that my sister did outreach work for universities so has been into a lot of schools and gained a good understanding of the type of school that on the surface may seem a bit scruffy but underneath really aims to get the best out of each child.

You should be able to download the GCSE options document for each school. Some only teach French or only Spanish for example, if that matters. And quite a few make you choose between geography and history at GCSE which my DS said no way to, those are his favourite subjects. I would try to get hold of parents from each school and talk to them, it feels like such a monumental decision, and it is, but gathering as much info as you can will help. I was lucky in that ds wanted to follow the couple of kids he knew from a sports activity who were going; there's literally him and one other child from their primary school. But we are very happy so far, it has a great ethos and while there's rules and a uniform, they seem to treat the students like mini adults rather than speak down to them, which is the impression I got from other schools.

If I think of anything else I'll bob back! Good luck with it all

What is the waiting list movement like? We are in London so get more choices anyway but there's such a lot of movement on the waiting lists that I really don't view being stuck with a failing school miles away as a realistic risk for us personally as the nearest school is often undersubscribed and even if it isn't it's definitely one of the less popular and people will swap their spaces for other schools if waiting list places pop up. So we would be very close to the top of any waiting list for the nearest school and so if we joined it after national offer day we'd be pretty much guaranteed being offered a space before September, as you leapfrog those further away even if you join the list later. So in your case I'd put down top three and join the waiting lists for the three mediocre schools immediately after offer day, but I don't know how risky that would be elsewhere.

@longestlurkerever thank you, so of the two mediocre schools one was oversubscribed last year, one was under. But the previous year they were both over subscribed. If I was confident one was always undersubscribed I probably wouldn't panic so much but it's knowing that all 5 could get filled up that's filling me with panic. Someone I know was in this exact position but then did actually get a waiting list spot for the rural school, so there is movement there sometimes (awful 4 week wait though!)

Just to clarify, if we got the horrendous school offered to us, we'd be on the waiting list for our 3 choices, and could we also apply to be added to the waiting lists of the mediocre schools do you know? (Appreciate this might be area dependent).

I'm pretty sure you can be added to extra waiting lists, yes. Here it's all about the waiting lists really. There's only one school I'm applying to that I think we have a realistic prospect of being allocated in march but there are others that I could strike lucky with once everything shakes down. Our council is kind enough to share previous years' cut off distances for both march and September and there's about 1/2 mile difference between the two (covers a lot of houses in London. Appreciate less so elsewhere!)

Also, if you don't get one of your preference schools you'll be allocated the nearest school with places. Even if the mediocre schools are full at the end of the process, is it possible some of these places are filled by people who didn't get their preference? Are the mediocre schools nearer to you than the horrendous one? Because if so you'd be considered for those first. If the horrendous school is nearest and has places you'd definitely get that one if you don't get one of your preference, and the mediocre schools could be filled by others without a preference school. Changes the odds slightly

Also, I clicked on your link because I'm mulling over this dilemma for my dd. Mileage wise the distances I'm considering are much smaller but in terms of time commitment they're probably similar, and cost would vary depending on time tradeoff (bus/train/taxi/cycle all potential options). I think I'm leaning towards thinking the schools would have to be amazing to be worth all the travel time as that's time that could be spent doing homework/activities/sports/music/friendships. But a lot of people I know are making the opposite call