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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Henrietta Barnett, Latymer or Dame Alice Owens

81 replies

choosingtherightschool · 27/09/2021 11:31

We are currently struggling to decide which one is the best for DD.

DD is in a very fortunate position to have passed round 1 of HBS (and we live within 3 miles), and very good chance of getting through to both DAO and Latymer. Music is a massive part of her life, she plays mutli instruments and has already achievement very good grades in them. She also loves sports, enjoys various types, such as running, football, basketball, tennis, table tennis. She’s very competitive and loves challenges.
She is in a mixed primary school, where she gets on with boys and girls equally well. She is not fussy at all and doesn’t mind go to either girl or mix school.
None of these schools are very close to us, all approx. 40-50mins by bus, but DD feels more independent to travel by bus.
We also have a DS who is in year 4 and I always wondered if its better to send them to same school for the closer relationship and easier life, DAO’s sibling rule is obviously very attractive, but we have to choose what’s best for DD for now.
We want to choose an academic school that also provides all round education, and outstanding in music/performing art/sport, most importantly where she will be happy for the next 7 years.
It’s very difficult at the moment that we can’t visit all of these schools properly apart from DAO offers open days. Anyone has recent experience of these schools please kindly provide us with some insight!
Thank you in advance!

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choosingtherightschool · 07/10/2021 17:25

@HoverParent

So Latymer results are out since Monday night! Luckily we were up binge watching Squid Game, so we caught it at around midnight! (Anyone else feel like Squid Game is the ultimate metaphor of the Grammar School process!)

OK, so deciphering the results from being non-news is challenging. It is only really news if that was the end of the line. So, out of 2500 applicants, 650 are through to having their English scored, which will then result in a new final ranking of the top 200. So kids have gone from a 1/12 to a 1/3 chance.

For Music, out of 200 applicants, 30 were invited to audition, and an undisclosed number were accepted based on evidence of Grades. I would guess about 10 of the 30 will be accepted (again about 1/3) and 10 places would be based on Grades (not sure what the probability is here, since about 100 kids did provide evidence but no idea how many were G5 and above), but that is purely speculative. I don't know this for a fact.

So either, this was end of the line, and for the rest, wait another two weeks, something like that!

Yes we have been lucky enough to get through to the 650 and music audition, I think up to 16/17 candidates will be chosen from the 30, had a look at the previous music allocation reports, 3/4 candidates done grade 6 or above exam will get offered a place straightaway. Good luck to everyone doing the audition and waiting on 2nd round results.
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Stokey · 07/10/2021 22:51

@HoverParent just to add another variable. After you get a place in the top 650, you then get your English final place. But then in January your place moves again when they remove all the out of catchment places. My daughter moved nearly 200 places, I think over 40% of the top 650 were OOC.

choosingtherightschool · 08/10/2021 06:27

[quote Stokey]@HoverParent just to add another variable. After you get a place in the top 650, you then get your English final place. But then in January your place moves again when they remove all the out of catchment places. My daughter moved nearly 200 places, I think over 40% of the top 650 were OOC.[/quote]
@Stokey that’s such a larger number of OOC, I couldn’t believe it when looking at the results letter saying the same. I heard someone rank in 500 something got offer last year too. Latymer really should start doing something to prevent people using their exams as mock, it’s just not fair on the school.

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megafemme · 08/10/2021 07:46

My dd went to HBS and had a really good experience. IMO the pastoral care was strong and it's the parents who create a pushy vibe, not the staff.

We live not far from you OP and her journey was easy, the 263 bus to East Finch then the 102 for the 10 mins to HGS.

She did lots of music and several really nice school trips. One factor in our decision was that HBS offered Latin and DAO doesn't, which she always liked. Then again, Latymer offers Russian!

In terms of travel, I'd say HBS would be your easiest journey. The 626 will get you to DAO but if you're involved in extra curriculars it's another matter entirely. And please do not believe the hype about Latymer being situated in the North London equivalent of the Wild west Hmm.

My line of work brings me into contact with students and parents at all three of those schools. They are all good in many ways. IMO one of the nice things about HBS is that it remains relatively small which creates a more nurturing environment.

Feel free to PM if you want more details and good luck with your decision.

Stokey · 08/10/2021 10:17

@choosingtherightschool I think they lost a court case which meant they aren't allowed to only have IC doing the exam. It is a massive waste of resources for an underfunded school. My daughter's rank before they took out OOC was over 500. We found out in March that she was on the waiting list and finally got a place just before term started. She was all set to go to our local school which was our second choice. Ideally I wouldn't recommend this path!

@megafemme Latymer does Latin too from Y8. For some reason they do German in Y7, we would have preferred Spanish.

choosingtherightschool · 08/10/2021 13:40

@megafemme thanks so much for your comments, I'm so pleased to finally hear something so positive about HBS.
Yes the travel is definitely the most straightforward, and I totally get that the pressure is mostly from parents or the kids themselves. The only bit of concern we have is that the school seems lack of diversity, and some girls live far away, I'm wondering if there is community feel, and is it easy to form friendships and have a good social life.?

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choosingtherightschool · 08/10/2021 13:45

@stokey they should start charging exam fees for those family can afford it and don't mind paying, just not fair for the school already lack of funding to put up with the unnecessary expenses.
Such good news for your DD though.

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Mrsfrumble · 08/10/2021 14:53

Having all the OOC kids sitting the exam at Latymer also makes it much more chaotic and stressful for the children. I doubt DS would have made the 650 even if it was quieter, but he found the huge crowds and general chaos very overwhelming (he does have ASD, but other neurotypical children in his class who also sat the test said the same).

choosingtherightschool · 20/10/2021 21:28

Thanks all for your comments so far, she’s done it! DD has got into all of the school we applied for! We are over the moon! But still need help deciding….

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nickyee · 23/10/2021 01:49

Hi @choosingtherightschool we’re in Friern Barnet too, and our daughter has a high-enough ranking to go to DAO. This will be our first choice. Please let me know if you decide to send your DD to DAO.

HoverParent · 23/10/2021 17:17

We are choosing between The Latymer School and Dame Alice Owen's School. We live about equidistant from both, neither is easily accessible by public transport, but by car either is about 15 minutes.

First, I should say that we would be happy with either. If we had only one admission, either of these would be a reason for celebration. In fact, we have celebrated each of them in their own right!

We are choosing Owen's. It seems to be better funded, with a £1M annual stipend as part of Owen's legacy endowment helping to cover school expenses. A school is a commercial enterprise ultimately, in order to afford a diverse academic curriculum and extracurricular activities. This is the primary reason that tips the scale for our choice. Right now, we would consider the academic curriculum on offer to be fairly equal, but there is a risk that there is a gap that will build up over the next decade, where Owen's will end up ahead.

Latymer kids are smarter, no doubt about it; it is fully selective as opposed to partially selective. But the funding of Latymer seems to be struggling, as can be seen from simple things, like IT servers being down for weeks on end (it's not working right now!), shortened school hours, and less sports options and courses for the kids. Latymer kids are sharp as anything, though, really respect their academic prowess, as well as the great faculty. Just little one can do without proper funding (part of this is self-inflicted: they had a choice to convert to academy status in order to receive direct government funding, but chose to remain tied to the borough, which is essentially one of the poorest in London).

For Music, Latymer does have an edge, mostly due to the Music department and the vibrant student community. A lot of successful bands have their origins at Latymer (currently in 2021 Clean Bandit is a good example, with their use of Cello in pop music, simply musical genius at its finest). Music is deep in their DNA. Procol Harum has to be one of the most underrated bands of the Sixties, formed at Latymer with school kids of different years (listen to Whiter Shade of Pale to sample a product of Latymer's musical education). The Orchestra has pride of place at the School, and performs in different countries.

BUT, Owen's is not bad at music. Just check YouTube for both orchestras, and you will see that both are great (Latymer would win in a contest, though). So for traditional music, both are equal; for a vibrant music community, Latymer wins hands down. We are not looking to become professional musicians, so having a good orchestra and learning mastery in instruments is good enough. Both schools have Saturday music conservatory: Latymer through its own Music department and Owen's through Herts Music Service. There seems to be more opportunity for a less committed musical kid at Owen's, to try out new instruments and musical genres.

Owen's is mixed ability versus Latymer being kids with proven exam ability, but that's actually a good reason for an exam-selected kid to choose Owen's. The exam scholars will stand out, and at the same time learn to interact in a more diverse group (like an office!).

Location-wise: Owen's is in the middle of nowhere, a vast campus bordered by a motorway, which creates its own little microcosm, and which helps to regulate the interactions of the students with street life in general. Latymer is in a bustling neighborhood that is more akin to Queens or Brooklyn than London as we know it. And there are certain interactions with street life that would be preferably avoided that you will have to engage with. I should say that this is typical in NYC; the best grammar school in NYC is in a tough hood (Bronx School of Science, with 8 Nobel laureates among its alumni), and most Ivy League universities are in tough hoods (Penn, Columbia, and Yale individually have more gunshot fatalities than the entire of the UK combined); it's just NOT a plus reason. It's something you live with. If we had only Latymer as an option, we would totally live with it. But we would prefer to have a vast campus that is more or less isolated from street life completely, which is what Owen's offers.

For Sports, Owen's is slightly better, from what we can infer from the fixtures and sporting activities displayed on their separate sporting website, damealiceowenssports.co.uk.

OxBridge admissions has to be the final clincher. Owen's sends about 30 kids to OxBridge every year (almost 60% who passed the exam go to OxBridge, that's higher than Westminster in the recent decade), while Latymer sends 30 in a good year (which is still only 15% of those who passed the exam). In a bad year, like 2020, I think they send about 15. That's in spite of everyone having passed an exam that is tougher in terms of success ratio (1/10) compared to admission to OxBridge (1/5). So I can only infer that something happens to their aspirations or confidence in the course of their adolescence, where they are basically excluding themselves from the opportunity, or the guidance is failing to put them where they rightfully belong. They should be making it. At Owen's, it seems that the exam-gilded scholars are able to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, where they keep achieving their fullest potential and end up knocking on the doors of the university dons to take their rightful place at the table, confident that nobody else is in a better position to do so.

(That's it from me: you're telling me you haven't bought the T-shirt yet?)

Anydream · 23/10/2021 19:06

@hoverparent congratulations on choosing your child's school
I feel I do have to disabuse you though of the notion (apologies if I'm misreading your post) that the 65 "exam scholars" are the ones who excel throughout the school and everyone else is an also-ran.
Of the Oxbridge intake this year the majority admittedly did get in to the school on academic grounds but certainly not all; every year several usually get in who started in the sixth form and it's not unusual for siblings to be among the Oxbridge candidates too. (Also the school really doesn't push Oxbridge as a destination - it's very much a student's choice where they apply).
In my years of being a parent at the school I've seen students who got in on exam criteria absolutely fly and do brilliantly and I've seen them do nowhere near as well as others who didn't. I've seen children who got in as siblings or as local students do both of the above too. Several students in the top maths set for GCSE are not students who got in on the exam - and the top set is usually only around 30 students so well over half the 11+ intake won't be in that set.
Don't assume that passing the exam confers a particular status on a student. Once they're at the school no one knows how they got in (and this is strongly encouraged). In my dc1's year the top GCSE grades mostly went to those who got in on academic criteria but that was not the case for my dc2's year where siblings pretty much ran away with all the top grades. (Dc3 not yet there...)

choosingtherightschool · 23/10/2021 20:44

@HoverParent congratulations on making the all important decision. And thanks so much for taking us through your thorough decision making process.
You have made some really valuable points there. The funding issues being a really good one. It does make you wonder if the standard and quality will suffer.
And yes we watched those wonderful performances on YouTube and were very impressed by Latymer, having said that we’ve just being to Dao’s live concert last week, the standard is also very high!
And I have noticed the rather high oxbridge offer rates for Dao and wondered the same that whether Latymer has offered enough guidance and supports to those candidates, as they don’t seem to lack of students applying for oxbridge but the acceptance rate seems to be lower in recent years.
@Anydream I have no doubt that there will be some very bright siblings and local children! Plus one thing I believe strongly is that the children will perform better in a more relaxed and happy environments.

Thanks both, we have a bit more clarity now…

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Vespo · 25/10/2021 18:34

Great discussion, thanks to all of you. We, too, need to choose between Latymer and Dame Alice Owens, and like choosingtherightschool are also located in Friern Barnet.
Does anyone know anything about the transport to either school, such as crowding of train/bus, actual duration (especially for Latymer, since 34 bus is on A406), reliability?
Many thanks!

choosingtherightschool · 25/10/2021 22:28

@Vespo it’s great to hear you live so close. So we could either take 34, or take 221 to Bounds Green station then change for 102, we tried the 221/102 route on the exam day, it’s rather straightforward, the only bit we found annoying is the long walk after bus, but all kids are walking the same route in large groups so it’s not really a dealbreaker. We are actually leaning more towards Latymer, aside the location and funding issues, we simply cannot fault it, it’s a great school! Amazing music/art/drama. Fantastic pastoral care. A friend’s daughter is going there, she’s is thriving and really loves the school, and made many like minded friends. She’s so similar to DD.
I think the more mixed diversity and the co ed environment will create a much more balance dynamic.
I know Dame Alice Owens is super popular because it’s sibling policy, I asked DS if he’s happy to take the sibling place, he said he’d rather have earned the place himself, tbh I feel the same, I feel although the 11+ process is stressful at times, but the children do learn so much from it, it helps them tremendously preparing for the readiness to secondary school and help toward the GCSE and A levels later on. I think DS is more than capable of achieving it himself, rather than being handed a free sibling place!
Latymer also does Latin which DD loves. I think it’s a shame it’s location deterred many people, but I like it’s motto - Qui Patitur Vincit!

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Vespo · 25/10/2021 22:55

Thank you for replying. We haven't decided yet, but leaning Latymer. Just DS, so no sibling issue (but I wonder whether you might want to consider it, as it might be difficult to have DC in two different schools if things go wrong).
Commute-wise, was thinking of taking DS to Forestdale, where he can get 616 or W6 and be at Latymer in 30m. But open to suggestions.
Did you hear anything more about funding issues? I only saw the post in your other threads.

Vespo · 25/10/2021 22:56

Sorry, same thread, no other threads.

Vespo · 25/10/2021 22:59

HoverParent, I found your post very informative. But I was confused about your calculations about the schools' A-level achievements. On LocRating, both schools shown sending 7% of their kids to Oxbridge, and Latymer fares a bit better than DAO in % of students going to Russel group. At GCSE Latymer is clearly stronger. I could not understand why you think Latymer lags behind.

bendmeoverbackwards · 26/10/2021 00:28

I’m afraid I have to disagree with @megafemme about HBS. I don’t think the pastoral care is that good and many of my DD’s friends agree. There were some things my dd didn’t like - you HAVE to do triple science, you HAVE (or strongly encouraged) to do 4 A Levels. But that said my dd had a very good education and the girls develop great relationships with their teachers. Anything and everything was discussed in class, I don’t think you would have that open-ness in a mixed sex environment.

Stokey · 26/10/2021 08:50

@Vespo @HoverParent I wonder if Latymer are sending more to places like LSE as has a more maths/science leaning? Oxbridge is not necessarily the best choice for some subjects e.g medicine. I haven't looked at the stats though. A child I know that left for A levels did so because he wanted a wider choice, less traditional academic subjects, so can see the school may fall down here.

On the 34 bus, DD and her friends get the bus there but get the train & tube back as the bus is often so full in the afternoon that it doesn't stop at the Haslebury road stop. She's going east though so may be different if you're going the other way.

Moominmammacat · 26/10/2021 10:33

"At Owen's, it seems that the exam-gilded scholars are able to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, where they keep achieving their fullest potential and end up knocking on the doors of the university dons to take their rightful place at the table, confident that nobody else is in a better position to do so." ... absolutely not true. There speaks mother of three DCs with academic places.

Vespo · 26/10/2021 12:09

I have read - across the web - contradictory messages about the financial situation at Latymer. One messages mention recent refurbishments, another potential funding issues coming up. Any advice?
Also, any opinions about the current head-teacher? I was surprised about the welcome video, which starts with what appears to be two takes of her speaking about the same topic (co-ed education). I was surprised no one checked and fixed it.

choosingtherightschool · 26/10/2021 12:38

@Vespo I spoke to the friend whose daughter at Latymer, they don’t feel there’s much concern with the financial difficulties, which all state schools are facing, they have a very active parent community who organise many fund raising events for the school.

Yes that particular video seems quite strange, but if you look at all of other videos, especially in the welcome videos in year 7 section, seems to be lovely and down to earth, I particularly like the video from the pastoral care team.

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Vespo · 27/10/2021 09:23

Hi to everybody. For anyone still trying to find info on Latymer, yesterday I spoke with three parents with their children there right now across different years. I also spoke to one of their child (in year 10). They all spoke very positively of Latymer. They all find it a very friendly place. None of them was aware of any financial issue, other than Latymer being a state school and as such always in need of cash like any other state school. But there does not appear to be any specific financial issues undermining it right now. There is also a foundation that takes care of building repair costs.
The parents also all spoke very highly of the current head teacher. They were all very impressed by her organizing skills and overall humanity. They all also thought highly of the teachers and no department was found wanting. Finally, they all said that their kids are

happy to go to the school. I felt very re-assured.

Superness · 27/10/2021 11:23

I have also heard positive things about Latymer and that it is a lovely school. I’m in a different position - deciding between my local, outstanding comp and Latymer for my dd and veering towards Latymer.