ISEB pre test scores for private and grammar schools (1 Post)

[AC7001]

I know it is not exact comparison, but I was recently told the corresponding ISEB scores one get on the Atom site as an indication the type of schools you can at:
Top grammar in London: At least 9988 for the 4 papers, and for some all 9's
Top private (e.g. Hampton, Latymer Upper etc): average of 8
Good private (e.g. KGS, Dulwich etc）：average of 7
Back up schools: average, i.e. 5 , suffices.

I want to know what direction my son should be going (we just start preparing now, a bit late compared with most I guess ). I know the ISEB pre-test is not quite like the actual 11+ but would it give a rough indication?

I don’t think there’s too much of a correlation other than as a general marker of ability - in our experience, with my dd doing a couple of months on atom over the summer, she increased her SAS scores by about 20, but I don’t think there has been a corresponding increase in her ability in, say written areas which standard 11+ exams test. Atom is a skill, which doubtlessly trains very well for getting a high score in the iseb, and getting through to the next round of schools which use it as a pretest to interviews or more written papers at 11+, but in our experience I don’t think it goes much beyond that. I would use it in conjunction with past papers which reflect the contents and style of the papers for the schools that interest you.

I agree with L0ndonGirl on this. Computerised tests have been adopted widely by independent schools in and around London, but only as an extra step of elimination. By practicing atom kids ability to deal with computerised tests increase and you do get a surge in score in few weeks. But where they show weaknesses, you will need to dig deeper in them so they improve on those areas. For this you will need to refer back to traditional resources i,e books and past papers. Also to ace through the second round (which most super selectives have) and ultimately gaining a place in your chosen school practicing traditional written papers is irreplaceable. So Atom's standardised score is helpful in understanding kids ability but relating that with ultimately gaining a place is bit far fetched I would say.

Very clear, thank you. I know the 11+ either grammar or independents are much more than the computerised ISEB. But I do want to know broadly the type of schools ds should aim and prepare for. He just started year 5 and so quite late in the preparation. I have given him some sample questions to get him understand the type of question , then let him do a few mocks on Atom during the free trial period. He scored 5-6 for English, 6-7 for VR and NVR and 8 for Math, so average about 6.5-7 for the 4 tests. What sort of schools would you recommend he should target in the preparation?

Also, I gave him some sample 11+ papers (those with answers provided) downloaded from school websites. He scored around 60% but overrun in time by about 30%. Now he just started year 5. How much can he improve from now until the exams (about a year and so)? Is such scores good, average, or bad?

By Stanine of 6.5-7 on average on Atom ISEB I mean average score of about 110

I suspect you're overthinking it a bit. I would apply to a range of schools. You could also sit 10plus at eg Hampton and KGS. They are good preparation and give useful feedback if you don't get an offer. (Both hard so only do if your DS wont mind if he doesn't get an offer- plenty don't and go on to get in at 11+)

I don’t know the schools in your area, but I would do it the other way round - think about which school seems a good fit for your child - his interests, temperament, attitude - and which schools work for you as a family in terms of practicalities. Them talk to their admissions teams about what they’re looking for in a child at 11+ and see whether it seems attainable in the next year

I think if he hasn't done any prep as yet, you can't really use the scores as a guide to future results.

I also don't think the start of Y5 is too late to begin although I know there is lots of panic over it. Just get him a tutor, or tutor him yourself, and gradually build up his knowledge of what he needs to do in the exams, and then revisit where you are in the summer with trial tests and papers.

Agree with Stokey: Year 5 is the perfect time to start preparing if they are already doing well at school. It's the parents' hysteria that gets people doing anything extra earlier.

As (hopefully) a bit of a more helpful post, OP...

I think that's average to good at this point and you can still be open to a spread of schools.

In maths, I would focus on teaching the topics he hasn't covered yet - practice paper scores will increase massively with that, but I would hold off on papers for now. Then next term start with the occasional practice paper to improve speed. As he gets faster and the knowledge is there, you might notice many of the dropped marks are from 'silly' calculation errors so the last stage is usually doing more practice papers and finding a balance between speed and accuracy.
In English, lots of reading and vocab makes a big difference.
Good luck :)

If he just started Y5 this is when people normally start their preparation, not late. If he’s Y6 you’re starting preparation late. The Atom scores are age standardised, so your DS is being compared with other kids starting Y5 rather than the children about to do the tests. We did Atom in the summer term of Y5 and I found that her scores rose by about 8-10 points during that period, but we switched to paper practice for the month before her exam. For the grammar schools near us we were aiming for 125+ on the tests, and 8s and 9s, but some of the less competitive ones will be fine with some 7s too.

Both on Atom and in doing the past papers, he was very slow. He can only complete 70-80% of the questions during the allowed time frame. Granted he just started year 5 and hopefully he can pick up speed over the next year. But is that normal? I look at the questions myself and I must say for a 10 year old (the time he will take the test), he needs to work extremely fast. I wonder how those kids can finish the paper on time and get 90% correct as said for those top grammars.

DS is at a SS London Grammar and yes he was finishing and getting 90%+ in practice and in the real thing, but not all of them that get through did. The problem is that there are lots of similarly capable boys competing for the places getting 80%+, which is what makes it so competitive. But they don't all have to be at the top end to have a chance.

It also depends what practice papers you’re doing: some are harder than others.

OP, the beginning of Y5 is the right time to start 11+ prep for most children. Your DS needs to be reading a wide variety of material and able to do basic arithmetic (times tables, simple division, addition and subtraction) in a flash. Beyond that, you will need to see what topics are covered by his entrance exams, and if there is verbal or non-verbal reasoning then those will need to be practised as well as English and maths. Spend the next nine to ten months focussing on accuracy and ability to answer the questions. Then in the last few months before the exam focus on speed.

If you want to know where your DS is relative to his cohort then CATS tests can tell you what sort of school might be best for him to aim at.

@AC7001

Both on Atom and in doing the past papers, he was very slow. He can only complete 70-80% of the questions during the allowed time frame. Granted he just started year 5 and hopefully he can pick up speed over the next year. But is that normal? I look at the questions myself and I must say for a 10 year old (the time he will take the test), he needs to work extremely fast. I wonder how those kids can finish the paper on time and get 90% correct as said for those top grammars.

It's a mixture of innate ability and practice. I think practice makes a HUGE difference over time, but it may not necessarily get you consistent 9s. You're still quite early on in the process, so you have time to practise Atom on a regular basis and see if you hit a hard ceiling or not.

Whatever your ceiling is, aim for the right type of schools for that range and you should be fine. I've shared a list of schools and their ISEB scores on your other thread.