GCSE options - what bearing on A-Level (esp music)?

[minisnowballs]

Hello - hoping for some general advice on this one.

DD2, Year 8, has to pick some of her options this year. She wants to do EVERYTHING (but obviously can't) and is wondering whether to sacrifice an obvious subject she'd find easyish (music) for one she's interested in (sociology).

She does a LOT of music out of school and would want to take the A-Level. She already has grade 5 theory and grade 6 practical and will realistically have grade 8 in at least two instruments (neither of them piano, sadly) by the time she hits 16. She just doesn't click particularly with the GCSE music curriculum or current teacher and feels she spends all saturday doing it anyway.

Question is - will most sixth forms accept theory plus practical instrumental for the A-Level course or do they insist on GCSE, and does the A-Level run on from GCSE or is the curriculum quite different? She's academic in the main, so I don't see her finding extra work a massive burden, so she doesn't need Music as an option from that point of view?

Anyone got any thoughts? I'm not sure that taking GCSE music out of school is an option (her Saturday school doesn't offer it and the one that does costs a fortune and she wouldn't want to change teachers anyway)...I love her enthusiasm but we don't want to shut an obvious door on her by dropping the music.

Thanks!

I can't speak for nowadays sorry but I did a level music without doing the gcse. I had grade 8 violin and grade 5 theory. Initially it was a very big shock to the system and I had to work hard to catch up but I ended up with a good grade. What I would say though is if she is a certain she wants to take the a level then it's going to be much easier path to take the gcse. I wasn't expecting to take the a level when I did my gcse choices.

I would contact the curriculum leader at the sixth form you think she will attend and ask for the entry requirements for the course.

She will need to do composition for GCSE and A level. It isn't advisable to start A level without having composed at all.

I agree, while grade 8 in an instrument is as such a higher level than a GCSE, the GCSE leads in to the A level and will cover things not covered in gradings. If she genuinely wants to do music A level and she knows that now, then surely it makes sense to take the GCSE.

Sociology GCSE is most certainly not required for A level as not many schools offer it.

What else would she drop to keep music GCSE OP? Other things that she might wish to do at A level? If so, are they linear subjects such as MFL? Or modular, like history - which can be picked up at A level without GCSE (tho again, why wouldn't you take the GCSE).

Check on your local sixth-form providers. Ours will take them on the strength of grade 5 theory and practical. The obvious gap in preparation is on the composition side, so it would be worth seeing whether she can do some either with one of her existing teachers or someone separate, so that that isn't quite such a learning curve.

Thanks all. Lots to think about here. Her school has a Sixth Form and she may well stay but it's not a given, so obviously I will ask them but in London there is such a choice that she could choose lots of other places.

She can study composition at Saturday School if she wants - and is down to do some (they are probably better at it than her school but perhaps not so oriented to GCSE/A-Level)...we could make it a stipulation I guess.

She could drop History (her greatest love), or drama (which she also adores) for sociology- she has to take a language and will probably want to do Latin.

The school is having a bit of a rocky time with music staffing (not really their fault, and probably soon put right) - perhaps that is what is putting her off - that and her desire to have her cake and eat it too! Will think on, at least we have some time. Thanks!

So she could do music, drama, history and Latin - then do the adored history, music and xyz for A level; sounds good to me.

The A level music at my DD school very much follows on from the GCSE. For example, there are 8 set works at GCSE and 13 at A level. The performance and composition making up the remainder just like GCSE. I have been told that GCSE Music is a very good grounding for A Level Music. My daughter has just started her GCSE Music course and is really enjoying it so far.

The 6th form my daughter goes to accepts ABRSM (or equivalent) grade 5 in place of GCSE music.

We had a similar dilemma as my daughter had one fewer option than she would have liked ideally. Like your daughter mine did a lot of extra curricular music, and sounds to have been a similar standard, and she wasn't sure whether it was worth studying to GCSE.

In the end she decided to drop Spanish (she was doing French and Latin, so it would have been her third language) and was glad she had stuck with music, which she subsequently studied to degree level. The composition was something new for her at GCSE but she also enjoyed learning about genres that she didn't really know anything about which gave her a wider musical appreciation.

I would definitely recommend music, history and drama if she loves it over sociology, which most school don't teach until A level.

Being a triple threat girl and only able to choose 2 out of dance, music and drama at GCSE we looked at this very closely. Every we did and would have applied accepted grade 5 theory and at least 5 in first instrument for A-level music. DD got a place on the Hampshire music scholarship program with grade 5 theory and Grade 6 (distinction) MT singing.

Music teacher here. It depends very much on which exam boards you are talking about as to whether or not they follow on. Years ago, grade 5 theory and grade 5/6 practical were "equivalent/above" GCSE grades. Now I'm less sure. Whilst it is true that students with g5 theory are very well-placed, their knowledge is confined to the Western Classical Tradition and GCSE Music is much broader than that. You can score highly in a practical instrumental exam yet play the same piece for GCSE and come unstuck because the examiners are looking for different things. That said, we take decent committed musicians who have not taken the GCSE onto the A level course on the proviso that there is some ground to be made up, but this is done on a case by case basis.

To the person stating that GCSE has 8 set works and A level 13, you are talking about one exam board. The one I teach has 2 at GCSE and 4 at A level, yet students are expected to know about a vast number of styles beyond those. Please don't generalise as it is unfair to people doing other specifications and their parents.

To the OP, what is the obsession with being a pianist? Piano skills are ok, but having spent the last 3 days teaching year 8 as a class orchestra, the pianists are without doubt the most inflexible performers. Most are incapable of keeping up with the group, something the basic string players manage without any problem. Most grade 8 pianists can't accompany anyone or adapt their playing to work in a duet. Orchestral or band musicians do this from day 1.

If I was advising your DD, I would steer her towards Music on the grounds that the 30% performance component was already within her capability. All she needs is the composing and appraising. Sociology is not so highly regarded and it is perfectly possible to pick that up either at A level or degree level without prior study. History is an excellent choice as it involves analysis and essay writing.

Just a parent here but I would say it's much better to do music than sociology.
My child had grade 8 at the age of 13 and was a pretty talented performer but still felt really stretched by music GCSE (particularly the composition and different genres). The performance part was comparatively very easy but was only a small part of it. They haven't gone on to do A level though so I can't comment on that part.

I would be really wary about doing A level music without GCSE as the composition element is really quite challenging. My DD has a scholarship to RCM (not to boast but to put it in context that she is good at the performance side) but really struggled with this even having done GCSE music. Is the Saturday school CYM as you mentioned it was less expensive? If so although they don't offer GCSE music they do offer both composition and a weekly GCSE support class which would help bridge the gap.

Thanks so much everyone. So many different views here but mostly towards taking it.

The obsession with piano? Only that as far as I understand if she wanted to study music at degree she’d have to have it and it seems useful for theory- and the current work in school is all on keyboards so it makes it look like that’s all they’re interested in. She plays in plenty of orchestras and groups on flute and now bassoon- and in church and school groups on cello.

Yes CYM and she could definitely do composition there and the gcse classes- she loves the place and does every available thing to fill her day (some songwriting this year which is probably a good composition start). Supporting studies since year 5 means she knows quite a lot about music history-not just western- but there does not seem to be a specific curriculum there.

As an alternative viewpoint - how wedded is she to actually doing music A-level?

I know a couple of people who were excellent musicians and wanted to study music, but didn't do A-level music. In one case, they didn't do GCSE music - they did a lot of music at Saturday school; were primarily interested in Western Classical tradition, but did also study broader music history to some extent. They did some composition as part of it but did not enjoy it, and did not want to spent that much time for GCSE on something they didn't enjoy and might well end up lowering their grade in a subject they were otherwise good at (and it might have had an impact on their confidence as well). In both cases, the A-level curriculum just didn't particularly suit their interests and they felt they would find it frustrating having to do things leading towards an exam, rather than what might suit them most musically at the time. I think one of them also didn't necessarily think she would go into music, but was keeping options open for things like medicine as well! Both were able to get into conservatoire training later on - this was a while ago though and I don't know how things are now; it might well also be different for an academic music degree rather than performance. But their Saturday music training, performance skills, theory, aural etc was what mattered for them going forward really. I suppose one issue might be a univeristy or convservatoire questioning the passion/commitment if a child had an option to take music A-level but chose not to. (I suspect at some schools, this isn't even a question as music isn't offered at A-level).

Might be worth looking at the A-level course, and seeing if it really does match her interests, and if not, if it's really required for what she wants to do afterwards, as I know lots of people assume that they ought to do A-level or that they have to do it.

Hard to know about a-level when she's only just 12 (and may well not want to study music further anyway! but definitely a thought) - I always just say to both my girls that it is best not to shut any doors you might want to go through when picking options, which is what all this is about. I'm aware sociology is not always massively highly regarded at GCSE (and trying not to be a snob about it to her because I know I'm old fashioned and want her to feel they are her choices and not ours).

btw @Lonecatwithkitten I just love the phrase 'triple threat' - it always makes me laugh as it sounds so menacing, despite not meaning to be at all (DD2 not particularly stagey as she can't dance, so definitely more 'no threat to anyone!) but brilliant that your daughter was able to do that.

@minisnowballs it's a reflection of the industry she is going into. Sixth form auditions were a whole day affair, but a midday a list was read out and you can go, second list at 3pm you can go.

@minisnowballs - we're in a similar position but DD is in year 9. She's thinking of doing GCSE music outside of school this year because she's absolutely sure she wants to do it at a level but doesn't want to take up one of her few GCSE choices with it (there's a limit of 10 at her school and 7 are compulsory).

She's working towards her diploma on her first instrument so the instrumental component of the GSCE is covered and she can do composition at her Saturday conservatoire JD but I haven't yet looked into how she'll cover the listening curriculum or indeed where she'll do the exam itself. I was planning to look into it this week and can let you know if I find anything useful.

Also spoke to the head of music and he said the requirement at their sixth form for doing music A-level was to have music GCSE. It may differ at other schools though.

@turndownthevolume sounds very similar dilemma (diploma super impressive)... Do let me know if any great insights appear! I think Trinity offers (or used to) the GCSE on Saturdays (at considerable cost) but I don't know anything about the others.

This thread is making me rather sad. It's lovely that there are so many talented DC around. However, school music teaching in England has been decimated. The number of students taking A level Music has plummeted over recent years. Much of this is to do with the ludicrous omission of Arts subjects from the (frankly ridiculous) EBacc, meaning that lots of schools have quietly dropped it from their GCSE provision. In the nicest possible way, teaching the A level & GCSE groups is much more intellectually stimulating and rewarding than the constant grind of KS3, where you have mixed ability children, many of whom did next to nothing in their primary schools so are starting from a really low level. Why bother staying in a school as the lone music teacher if there is no exam work? It's also really disheartening having really good performers opting for other subjects (especially STEM) because they think they'll get a better job. To be honest, at GCSE it doesn't really matter. Another reason given is that "I already perform at a high level so I don't need the GCSE." Fine, but if you won't commit to school music, don't expect me to bend over backwards to showcase your talent.

A few years ago, a regional music group offered A level Music. I have no issue with that per se, as many secondary schools could not run it for just one student. However, they did not discriminate between schools and persuaded one of our students to do the exam with them, rather than through the school. That meant that our group size dropped below the minimum of 5 students, making it financially unviable. Luckily another person changed their option and filled the gap, but we might have disappointed 4 students for the sake of one. The regional group didn't give a stuff. However, Karma is great - ours got A*s, the student who defected only got A, plus ours all passed grade 8 Theory too.

I get that it's sad Malbecfan - and rest assured that both mine fully participate in the 'musical life of the school' (not in a pushy showcasey way but in a 'joining in the ensembles that are appropriate' way). DD1 has picked music GCSE and enjoys it, although she's the only one in her class playing an orchestral instrument, which makes it tricky. (she's a violin/viola, everyone else is guitar and piano). I can see that DD2 will have the same issues. It's not that I want her to 'defect', just that she has such enthusiasm for so many subjects and can only do a few.

@minisnowballs - I'd have a chat with Geoff Harnies about what they can offer. One of mine was at CYM and did the GCSE music support class (did GCSE music too) and said it was really good. Mine didn't do the composition class but I'd ask for that as well. Once you know what they can offer go and talk to the music department at school and see what they say. As she's a cellist you could have a chat with Gill to as she is the most amazingly helpful person ever.

Thanks London Mummy- yes Gill is indeed amazing (but DD2 plays cello outside CYM, at school, so Julie is in charge of her as she's first study flute).

Glad to hear GCSE support is so good -hoping DD1 will do that next year (when she gets theory out of the way).

[quote turndownthevolume]@minisnowballs - we're in a similar position but DD is in year 9. She's thinking of doing GCSE music outside of school this year because she's absolutely sure she wants to do it at a level but doesn't want to take up one of her few GCSE choices with it (there's a limit of 10 at her school and 7 are compulsory).

She's working towards her diploma on her first instrument so the instrumental component of the GSCE is covered and she can do composition at her Saturday conservatoire JD but I haven't yet looked into how she'll cover the listening curriculum or indeed where she'll do the exam itself. I was planning to look into it this week and can let you know if I find anything useful.

Also spoke to the head of music and he said the requirement at their sixth form for doing music A-level was to have music GCSE. It may differ at other schools though.[/quote]
Have you talked to the school about doing it outside school? If they only have a few takers for GCSE (perhaps not enough for a viable group), but others who would be interested but can't fit it in, then they might decide to run it as an extracurricular - I've come across that happening on a couple of occasions.