3 A-levels or 4 A-levels?

[teenagekiks]

Options deadline looming in a few months time for my DC in year 11. They want to go down the STEM route, so choosing from: Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology (and possibly Further Maths). Geography and Economics are also contenders.

But DC struggling to decide between 3 or 4 A-levels. There is also the option to do an AS in some of these subjects.

DC is a bright kid and wants to apply to Russell Group universities, and possibly Oxbridge. For the latter, is it better to do 4 A-levels or does it not really matter?

And does it make it easier if the 4 A-levels are all in STEM subjects, as perhaps the course content is shorter?

We're also a bit confused about how universities consider AS levels these days.

DC doesn't yet know what university course they want to take (fair enough at their age!) but probably will be in STEM, although as I mentioned Geography and Economics are possiblities.

I think choosing the subjects will become clearer once DC decides on how many A-levels to take.

Any advice very much appreciated!

Offers will be based on 3 A levels so no point doing 4 in year 13.
That said, starting with 4, then dropping one at the end of year 12 is a good option for a kid who either wants to do FM (and may change their mind about a Maths degree - if two of three ALs are Maths it can limit alternatives; two out of four being Maths gives wiggle room), or a bright kid who genuinely doesn't quite know where their interests lie.

It does seem early to make final decisions though - I'd hope there was no issue changing later on?

If your DC is thinking of taking Further Maths this is counted as 2 A’levels (maths and further maths). My DS is doing this and 2 other STEM subjects and is coping well so far but I think another subject would be too much and probably detrimental ultimately. Further maths is hard and needs quite a bit of input to keep on top of it.

If he wants to do further maths (especially if he is thinking of applying for a maths degree) then 4 A levels is a good idea as long as he is very academically capable.

If he doesn't want to do Further Maths then there is no advantage in doing 4 and it possibly be a disadvantage if he spreads himself too thin.

No need to do four as offers will be based on three grades. Most students will do better with three - AAA better for uni than, for example, ABBC.

Exception for FM which a lot of post-16 destinations treat as an extra with a couple of lessons a week and the expectation of three others, one of which will be maths.

AS of no value except as an indicator to the student. Very few schools offer it now. I am not aware of shorter course content in STEM subjects, not sure where you have got that from. Science subjects are considered challenging at A level.

My understanding is that you only 'need' 3x A-Levels and that's what the universities will base their offer on.

However, if DC are looking at a maths degree then there is usually an expectation that they'd be doing Further Maths (if offered) and that it works better as a 4th A-Level - as a PP says, doing Maths, Further Maths and 1x Other really does limit your options.

Definitely worth looking at admissions info for the courses that DC might be interested in as they will vary.

I may be wrong but I think if DC are applying for Oxbridge with 3x A-Levels when everyone else in their school/college is doing 4x subjects it could be a disadvantage. If 3x A-Levels at DC's school is the 'norm' then it's less of an issue. Again, the Maths/Further Maths query is worth checking with admissions.

Thank you @RomainingCalm @clary @Comefromaway @thiswayno and @titchy for taking the time to reply.

So I guess the decision is whether or not DC wants to take Further Maths or not.

I believe the school wants to know the children's A-level choices in a few month's time for timetabling purposes, but it will be possible to make changes later in the school year.

Lots of food for thought! Many thanks again.

You take 4 A levels in year 12, then you drop your worst one to go into year 13.

Work backwards, look at the courses he would consider at uni, everything from STEM, NatSci, maths, geography etc and look at their entry requirements to get an idea. For some subjects it will say further maths is desirable. This is because not all sixth forms/colleges offer it however it does put a student at a massive disadvantage if they are applying to Oxbridge or RG unis which say they would prefer fm. They are oversubscribed and will more than likely pick those with FM. There is data to back this up which I looked into a few years ago when Ds1 was in year 11.

Re maths and further maths a lot of 4th A levels are further maths but you have to really love maths as it will be 50% of the timetable in sixth form. Even when taking 4 A levels, all universities offer on 3. Ds took 4 (maths, fm, physics and computer science) he had 4 offers from RG unis all based on 3 A levels but specified A* in maths.

This also comes down to grades, a 7 for maths at GCSE usually leads to a C/D at A level compared to a 9 at GCSE which is more likely to lead to an A* or an A. Half of Ds's further maths group dropped it to concentrate on their maths grade. You had to have a 7 or above to take fm in the first place. Ds's sixth form timetables maths and fm however year 12 is spent doing all of the A level maths content then they move onto fm at the end of year 12 and all of year 13.

Taking 4 A levels meant no enforced EPQ for Ds and he also still had 5 hours of free periods every week.

Also in Ds's sixth form they don't do the whole 4 A levels in year 12 and then drop to 3. They want them to ace the grades in 3 A levels not spend time on another, as there are no AS grades (unless you are in Wales) there is no benefit to taking 4 to drop to 3 unless you are very undecided about subjects, however as I said, Ds's sixth form don't do it as standard. The 4th A level is always further maths. If they are doing a science then they take core maths if they are not already taking maths A level.

This is fairly straightforward.

1. Maths
2. Most-enjoyed science
3. Additional science OR geography OR economics
4. Further maths OR one from 3 above, although I would avoid 3 x sciences altogether

4 A levels is a lot of work, and a lot of timetable time - even compared to those doing 3 and EPQ. DS is doing 4 (in Y12 now) at the moment, partly to solve timetabling complexities and to allow him to do a subject which he's the only person taking in his year. School don 't routinely do this, but it was the only way of making it work - and if it's too much he will have the option of dropping one/doing AS at the end of Y12, but not ideal. He has many fewer free periods than his friends, and therefore more work to do in less time! Usually only FM is offered as a 4th A level at his school - for this reason, I guess.

For Maths, Engineering ( some Cambridge Colleges even have a STEP requirement which requires Further Maths knowledge), Economics ( eg LSE) at competitive Unis you going to want Further Maths as the second A level not the 4th.

My children go to a selective school.
They strongly discourage 4 A levels unless one is FM (in their school, FM has to be a fourth - I know some students elsewhere do it as a 3rd) as it's just too much work.
DD has just left, did 3 and is going to Cambridge so it definitely has not disadvantaged her in any way. There are several of them going to O or C this year (and a couple of hundred going to other great unis) and none of them have done 4 this year (except for the FM ones).
Most schools no longer do AS levels so universities can't really use them.

Uni offers are on 3 A Levels so the advice re FM from @OnTheBenchOfDoom is spot on.

At my DD's school they recommended that you start with 4 A Levels and then by Christmas firm up your 3 A Levels and definitely no later than Easter of year 12. The only girls who did 4 A Levels included Maths and FM.

This debate comes up all the time on MN.

DS1 did 4 successfully (Maths,Chemistry, Physics and History) and is just starting 2nd year Chemistry at Oxford. He coped well with 4 and met his offer. The 4th A Level of History was useful in that for his insurance offer of Durham it could have been used to meet his grades.

I'd say if your child can cope well with 4 it can be a good choice. It keeps a few more options open and can demonstrate breadth. There was a chance DS1 would have gone for History (it's his hobby) and the A Level meant that could have been possible.

He still managed to play a lot of sport and have a life!

Just a bit of personal experience, as my eldest did four A levels (Maths, FM, Physics and a language). The fourth was basically for a bit of variety and because they really wanted to. All of their university offers were based on three A levels. That included some big hitters (Cambridge and St Andrews).

DD2 is currently doing 3 A levels. The main thing I notice is that she has far more study periods and is able to get the vast majority of homework/coursework done during the school day.

Also think ahead to potential University entrance exam requirements. DD1 also had to study for STEP (Cambridge maths entrance exam) and year 13 would have been very, very intense if it hadn't been for the fact all exams except for STEP were cancelled!

Based on what we've experienced I'd say by all means do four if you really, really want to study all four subjects and you can handle the workload. But it's not necessary and you may well be better with three done better.