Managed Move

[Sussexmum6]

Hi can someone tell me how a managed move works please. My dd is extremely anxious due to being bullied and has not returned back to school this term. She is adamant that she will not return to her current school, and talking about it causing her extreme anxiety/distress. Her head of year mentioned managed move, although has said before that let's try getting her to speak to an ELSA. When I mentioned managed move to my dd her face lit and up and she was actually happy. So am hoping they are able to do the managed move. But my question is can we choose which school the move will be to, does the process take long to complete. And what do you think the Elsa is going to ask dd. Should add my dd doesn't even want to meet the Elsa but I'm trying to convince her and arrange a meeting in a park.

@Obviouslynotallthere

I did a managed move for my DS who's behaviour was becoming quite difficult. He wasn't at risk of exclusion but needed a clean start somewhere else. So I applied and made my case, had a meeting and was offered a place with another school. Im pleased to say it worked well and even DS says he needed it at the time.

How do you apply and make a case, just speak to the head?

@overworkedrobot

Meeting with the ELSA should slow down the managed move process, however it's not something where one, or even 2 or 3, session is going to bring about change. Sessions over a prolonged time are necessary for true progress.

What would happen with the managed move if it failed? As managed moves aren't supposed to happen unless the child would return to their home school. Obviously in this case that isn't an option so you need to clarify this beforehand.

Yes agree she does need support from an Elsa or similar but unfortunately her personality is such that she doesn't open up. I had a confident coach working with her during the summer, however dd just did not engage with her at all.

@Heyha

I was just going to say I've never known a managed move be done for anything other than a child at risk of PEX but it got me thinking, if we were approached to take a managed move for a young person with anxiety and in need of a fresh start as opposed to the sorts of things that normal come attached with a manager move we'd no doubt be absolutely delighted and, subject to following the process, probably bite your arm of to make them our contribution to the managed move process locally.

Don't get me wrong, I've got one lad in my form this year that joined us with quite a reputation on a MM last year and he has so far been perfectly middle of the road and no trouble, he has taken the fresh start for what it is as quite often, but by no means always, happens.

I'd be interested to see how this plays out as like I say we would be thrilled to pick up a managed move student needing a start and support of this nature, I'm sure.

I agree it may work better aswell. Honestly feel all the bullies should be put in same class also.

My dc went through managed move for similar reasons, a few month ago, if you Nedd any info just ask

To the point the new school were delighted with dc, and dc was approached by the year head to check how they were settling down and told they really wanted them to stay and the new school. And they tjoped they would decide to remain with them, yes, agree with prev posters managed moves should be about pupils needing any fresh start not just to try managing poor pupil behaviour, as taking out a bully fir example still leaves the victim in an often toxic environment with friends or group of the bully still happy to keep up the harassment.

@prh47bridge
@overworkedrobot

Hi thanks for all your help previously to all here on mumsnet, can anyone help me further, so I got in touch with one of the schools asking if they had been over PAN in the past recent 2/3 years, with a view to appeal in year transfer refusal and this is their response.

Thank you for your email. XXXX is set up academically, pastorally and with physical and human resources for a total of 300 in a year group. We have legally had to go over PAN for a student in care or an exceptional case from the Pupil Placement Panel in the past. However, we do not go over PAN for an in-year admission.

Am I still able to use this in an appeal to my advantage? Thank you again for all your help.

I agree with all that prh47bridge has said.

As for the statement from the school, all that translates to is that they will not voluntarily go above PAN, but will if an external body tells them to, which is all schools’ default position. You certainly can use it at appeal, as it shows that they have gone above PAN in the past and (presumably) the sky hasn't fallen in. If you want to, press them for how much above PAN they have gone - 301, 302, etc?

Your argument will be that, whatever the prejudice (detriment) to the school in admitting your child as an additional pupil, the prejudice to her if she doesn’t get a place is greater and so she should be admitted. In my experience in real life and observation on MN, appeal panels are often open to the argument that getting a previous school refuser back into school can be a reason to allow an appeal. You can further strengthen your argument if you can point to other things which the preferred school would offer which the current school doesn’t, whether that’s something related to the past bullying (eg better pastoral and welfare support) or something different (eg chance to learn a language or join a band or orchestra).

@PanelChair Thank you so much for your response. Sorry if this is obvious, but would I word it that way in the appeal also,

the prejudice (detriment) to the school in admitting your child as an additional pupil, the prejudice to her if she doesn’t get a place is greater and so she should be admitted

Obviously changing to make sense, but using the term prejudice. Sorry just my first time trying to tackle this and am completely lost. Thank you again for all your help.

Yes, the two strands of your argument are that there would be little or no prejudice to the school in going above PAN, but even if there was, the prejudice to your child if not admitted outweighs it. Obviously, you would need to tailor this to fit all the circumstances (and make sure you’re comfortable with it) but the outline of your argument could be

XY school has confirmed that they have in the recent past exceeded PAN, to accept a pupil in care or one placed by the Pupil Placement Panel. XY school has not mentioned any serious problems or detriment to existing pupils caused by exceeding PAN in these instances, and so you consider that, likewise, admitting your child as an additional pupil would not cause any significant prejudice.

Furthermore, the current school has not got on top of the bullying [provide documentation here if you can] and your child is now too anxious to attend. You and she want her to be in school and she needs a fresh start in a safe environment. She wants to attend XY school and this would be in her best interests. [List what she would get at XY that she wouldn’t get at current school].

As a PS: Unless I’ve overlooked it, I can’t see any mention of how old your child is. If she’s approaching (say) GCSE years, I’d expand on the wanting to get her back to school angle by saying you want to get back to school at this important stage of her education, etc.

@PanelChair

Yes, the two strands of your argument are that there would be little or no prejudice to the school in going above PAN, but even if there was, the prejudice to your child if not admitted outweighs it. Obviously, you would need to tailor this to fit all the circumstances (and make sure you’re comfortable with it) but the outline of your argument could be

XY school has confirmed that they have in the recent past exceeded PAN, to accept a pupil in care or one placed by the Pupil Placement Panel. XY school has not mentioned any serious problems or detriment to existing pupils caused by exceeding PAN in these instances, and so you consider that, likewise, admitting your child as an additional pupil would not cause any significant prejudice.

Furthermore, the current school has not got on top of the bullying [provide documentation here if you can] and your child is now too anxious to attend. You and she want her to be in school and she needs a fresh start in a safe environment. She wants to attend XY school and this would be in her best interests. [List what she would get at XY that she wouldn’t get at current school].

@panelChair thanks so much for your help. My LEA have an online form, I'll put all my arguments for the move on it. One of the schools emailed me their admissions policy and mentioned I would receive all this information prior to the appeal. ( Not sure if she was referring to PAN or admissions policy)

So if I receive any new information I would need to address that in the appeal hearing.

Yes, you might need to respond to any new information at the hearing, but most of it won’t/shouldn’t be new. The letter refusing your in-year application should have already given the gist (ie that school is full at PAN and going above PAN will create prejudice). You’re trying to rebut that by saying prejudice to the school will be minimal (if any) but prejudice to your child will be significant if she doesn’t get a place.

It’s possible that on the day the school will argue that exceeding PAN will cause various (but usually unspecified) problems, but this often turns out to be waffle and if asked for specific examples the school can’t give any. The fact they’ve gone above PAN in the past suggests they can and will find workarounds for any problems (if they exist).

Agree with PanelChair.

Most panels in my experience treat bullying at the current school as a strong case. There are no guarantees but you've got a decent chance of winning. Hope it goes well.

@panelChair and @prh47bridge thank you both, another thing, the in year application was refused beginning of July - am I still able to appeal this decision? We all had Covid around that time, and I honesty thought my daughter would be okay after the holidays. I had a confidence coach working with her - but unfortunately she just did not engage with her at all. To give you an idea of her anxiety, she will randomly come up to me and say I am not going to present school all throughout the summer hols. I would ask her what she wanted for dinner and she comes out with I am not going to present school, this type of behaviour is still ongoing.

Second question is do i need the PAN for each year group or just the year she is trying to get into which is year 8.

Yes, you can still appeal. There is no time limit on appeals.

It is likely that PAN is the same for all year groups (although, under the new Admissions Code, it only actually applies to Y7). I wouldn't worry about other year groups. The one for Y8 is most relevant. If the school overall is below capacity due to other years being under PAN, that is also relevant so it is worth asking that question.

Yes, you can still appeal. Where schools/LEAs set deadlines for appeals, it's only for their administrative convenience.

Thank you @prh47bridge and @PanelChair, another quick question if I may. Does what I write on the appeal go to the school also before the hearing and if that is the case, should I follow this template,

www.theschoolrun.com/secondary-school-appeal-letter-template

incorrect admission criteria doesn't apply to my case, but the second point in bold suggests to hold back information regarding giving information why new school can accommodate without prejudice. Just wondering if there's any benefit to this point.

thanks

The school sees your case before the hearing and you will also see the school's case.

You can use that template if it helps but it really doesn't matter. All that matters is that you submit any documentary evidence you've got to support your case and set out your case clearly.

I wouldn't set out why the school can accommodate without prejudice as part of your written case. You haven't seen the school's case yet, so you don't know what points you've got to counter. I would deal with that in the hearing, either as questions to the presenting officer or as part of presenting your own case.

Got it thank you ever so much

Can I just include that the new school has better pastoral care and welfare support, I actually have no idea. Don't know anyone who attends the school either, although it is the topped ranked school in our area. Have asked on FB and had positive feedback about the school.

You can ask the school any questions you want within reason to help you prepare for your appeal and they must answer. Rather than talking about better pastoral care and welfare support without knowing whether that is true, find out what they do. You can then be specific about what they do that is better than the current school.

@prh47bridge @PanelChair @overworkedrobot sorry me again, I don't really have any direct written evidence that the bullying wasn't dealt with only indirectly (emails I've sent, which have been answered but none of the points addressed, whereby I've said clearly I didn't receive feedback or quoted a phone conversation where tutor said matter wasn't dealt with end of last term). Should I put forward a SAR or is that too much. I've also got another child in the school in year 10. Dd is year 8. Or would my emails be enough?

The emails sound like all the evidence you need. Provided they show you contacted the school repeatedly about bullying and they haven't addressed the issue you shouldn't need anything further.

Thank you for the reply

@prh47bridge can I quickly pm you to read over what I was going to include to lodge the initial appeal please. No problem if not thanks