If a level 5 is predicted would it be best to sit the foundation or higher paper?

Mattie82 · 2021-07-28T06:07:56+00:00

My ds has just come to the end of year 9. He is predicted a 5 in Maths, exceeding the level predicted at the start which was a 4 - he had a hard time I year 6 and scored 99 which is why he then got predicted a 4. Anyway, I spoke to his teacher and as it stands he will be put in the foundation paper where he can only get 5 in. I said if he wanted to try the higher paper could he and they said he could try and they would try him in set 2 instead of 3 in Sep. I just want him to pass and 5 he would be happy with but not sure what the best option would be. Experiences please? Thanks so much

TeenMinusTests · 28/07/2021 07:46

It sounds like he is in a small school if the choice is set 2 or set 3 and there isn't a 'crossover' set even in y10? My DD's comp didn't decide for borderline cases until y11.

The safer bet would be to go for foundation. Then he really concentrates on those topics without having to learn higher paper content.
However if you and he want him to have a chance at a 6 if y10 goes well her would need to try for higher and then drop back if the pace/content was too fast.
Would a 5 for maths be likely to be his lowest grade or in a mix of 4-6s?
Any chance he will want to do any A levels where the entry criteria would be a 6 for maths?

TeenMinusTests · 28/07/2021 07:54

If there are only 2 sets above him then presumably it is something like set 2 targets grades 5-7 and set 1 targets grades 7-9?
Would it knock his confidence to be in with better students or would it motivate him?

catndogslife · 28/07/2021 11:43

Most schools don't decide definitely which paper to enter pupils for until Y11. Ideally they would do mocks using both the Foundation and Higher papers to see which option gives him the best grade.
If there is a chance that he is likely to improve to a 6, which is possible with nearly 2 years left, then moving up a set would be a help.

TwoLeftElbows · 28/07/2021 14:13

It sounds very early to rule out higher paper. We have no predicted grades for our Y9 at all, though I'm sure her teachers do. With 2 full years of study ahead of him, if he is keeping up well in his current set then trying him up a set sounds like a good shout.

Maybe with some extra parental support or tutoring to spur him on.

Original poster

Mattie82 · 28/07/2021 14:44

@TeenMinusTests

It sounds like he is in a small school if the choice is set 2 or set 3 and there isn't a 'crossover' set even in y10? My DD's comp didn't decide for borderline cases until y11.

The safer bet would be to go for foundation. Then he really concentrates on those topics without having to learn higher paper content.
However if you and he want him to have a chance at a 6 if y10 goes well her would need to try for higher and then drop back if the pace/content was too fast.
Would a 5 for maths be likely to be his lowest grade or in a mix of 4-6s?
Any chance he will want to do any A levels where the entry criteria would be a 6 for maths?

600 pupil school . About 100 pupils a year .

OP posts:

Original poster

Mattie82 · 28/07/2021 14:46

@TeenMinusTests

It sounds like he is in a small school if the choice is set 2 or set 3 and there isn't a 'crossover' set even in y10? My DD's comp didn't decide for borderline cases until y11.

The safer bet would be to go for foundation. Then he really concentrates on those topics without having to learn higher paper content.
However if you and he want him to have a chance at a 6 if y10 goes well her would need to try for higher and then drop back if the pace/content was too fast.
Would a 5 for maths be likely to be his lowest grade or in a mix of 4-6s?
Any chance he will want to do any A levels where the entry criteria would be a 6 for maths?

Plant biology/Botany is what he wants to study one day. He gets 8/9s in all his biology tests and is doing separate sciences. Physics not so much his strong point, as that is more mathematical. Would he need a 6 in Maths to study Biology at A level do you think?

OP posts:

Original poster

Mattie82 · 28/07/2021 14:52

@TwoLeftElbows

It sounds very early to rule out higher paper. We have no predicted grades for our Y9 at all, though I'm sure her teachers do. With 2 full years of study ahead of him, if he is keeping up well in his current set then trying him up a set sounds like a good shout.

Maybe with some extra parental support or tutoring to spur him on.

He had predicted grades as soon as he left Primary based on his Sats and other things. Every single report had the same number next to each subject every term and then whether he is on target, exceeding or behind.

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TheTeenageYears · 28/07/2021 14:59

It's a difficult one, on the one hand the foundation paper will be less daunting however to get a 5 the percentage required will be much higher than what's needed to get a 5 on the higher paper. There is still time for improvement so I would wait and see what happens over the next year.

Original poster

Mattie82 · 28/07/2021 15:33

@TheTeenageYears

It's a difficult one, on the one hand the foundation paper will be less daunting however to get a 5 the percentage required will be much higher than what's needed to get a 5 on the higher paper. There is still time for improvement so I would wait and see what happens over the next year.

I've had to book him in for extra maths lessons because he's just not learning much this year.

OP posts:

TeenMinusTests · 28/07/2021 15:53

If he wants to do science A levels and is getting 8/9s for biology I'd be surprised if he isn't capable of higher paper. I'd be reluctant to 'settle' for foundation at this stage.

Original poster

Mattie82 · 28/07/2021 15:56

@TeenMinusTests

If he wants to do science A levels and is getting 8/9s for biology I'd be surprised if he isn't capable of higher paper. I'd be reluctant to 'settle' for foundation at this stage.

Yeah, it doesn't add up. For all the subjects not taken in Sats he was given 4s. So he is exceeding in science. In year he was in 2nd set for Maths and doing really well and now he's in 3rd set and as the teacher said, at the lower end of that group. It really depends on what teacher you get.

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Iamtheweedonkey · 28/07/2021 15:58

I resat my English and maths GCSEs a few years ago, the advice I was given was always go for a higher paper, as with foundation you have a ceiling of 5, which means you have to pass almost most of the paper to get a pass, or go for the higher where the grade boundaries are more accessible, even 1 grade higher would be amazing.

TeenMinusTests · 28/07/2021 16:01

If you have a look there have been other threads recently about Higher v Foundation maths.
For grade 5 students there are pros and cons. You need may need higher % on the foundation but of course they are easier questions. For the higher paper and grade 4-6 pupils it can be disheartening to be faced with papers you can do less than half of.

UserAtLarge · 28/07/2021 17:18

As others have said, it would normally be better for a child targeting a 5 to sit the foundation paper.

but it's too early to make that decision for your DS and it sounds like he might be under achieving. Is the school selective - otherwise they will have a real range of ability in each set and I wonder if he's not been given work at the right level?

If the predicted grades are solely based on SATs and not on his current work attainment, you may as well ignore them though.

Dobbyisahouseelf · 28/07/2021 22:29

I would say too early to make this decision. My DD was struggling in modern languages and her teacher suggested switching her to Foundation level at Christmas in year 11. My DD was relieved and felt very comfortable with the content in the exam and we were happy she achieved a grade 5.

Ask when is the deadline to submit candidates to the exam board for summer exams. Perhaps a teacher on this thread can comment.

PenOrPencil · 28/07/2021 22:35

I would not make a decision re. Higher or Foundation this early on. It is a myth that is is easier to get a 5 in the Higher paper - yes, you do need a higher % in the Foundation paper to get a 5, but the paper is much easier!

clary · 28/07/2021 23:43

I agree with others, end of yr 9 is way to early to decide so some time in set 2 might be good.

@Mattie82 it's very unlikely IME that he would need a 6 in maths to do A level biology. And remember that the 5 is just that, a 5, it never says that it's foundation.

Yes, the percentage for an F 5 is higher than a H 5, but the pauper us much easier. Take a look. I know more about MFL - where the writing paper, for example, has three easier questions, then one question common to both papers; the higher paper then has two much harder questions. Daunting for a 5/6 student (or worse, a 4/5 student) as it will be hard to access. Well done to your dd @Dobbyisahouseelf, she should be really proud of her MFL grade 5.

clary · 28/07/2021 23:43

sorry for typos, it's late!

TeanupFlutter · 28/07/2021 23:55

Similar with my DS who's going in to Y11. His teacher advised that if he did the Foundation and put the work in he is well capable of getting a 5. He may be capable of a 6 on the higher paper but it's a gamble in that there's a narrower margin with the grading and if he has a particularly tough paper on the Higher he might come out with nothing as you can't get lower than a 5 on it, any lower than a 5 is fail on the higher. His teacher is still open to considering him for both but said unless DS is considering a Maths A Level etc where he would need a higher grade then he would recommend going for the Foundation and a guaranteed 5 rather than risk going for the Higher and a precarious 6. I tend to agree, as long as DS come out with a 5 so that he can move on to college I'm happy.

Silkiecats · 29/07/2021 02:18

I would look at the 6th form you want to go to website and see what they require but our local one which is very competitive says a 7 in biology or a 7 in combined science and a 6 in maths. So if he's doing single biology just needs a 7 in that.

I spoke to a science teacher the other day and they said at GCSE biology is 10% maths, think they said chemistry 20% and physics 30%.

I would see how he gets on in set 2. The higher paper in maths is quite different from foundation so its worth looking at the difference - find exam board and normally on their sites. It's probably worth buying a Maths GCSE book for higher and trying to improve at home. Or on the computer Mathletics or similar would work. If you can say get him to do an hour a week for a year (may not be easy and if he's not keen would leave it) and he moves set it should be very possible to go up to a 6. Maths is very useful in a lot of subjects like science, computing, economics. Though if he got 99 in sats he may need someone to help/teach him but a lot of it having it explained well and practising.

Themeparklover · 29/07/2021 03:12

Sit Higher, he will either pass very well or just miss out in which case then choose to put in the effort and resubmit or put in for foundation , don't deny him the opportunity of doing well teachers are often so far off actual grade predictions, I was predicted an E in RE advanced and got an A, ended up with 12 A-C's

CornishPastyDownUnder · 29/07/2021 03:17

what does he enjoy/want to do?If he doesnt need maths-cant he just do foundation and at least pass it but focus on stuff that is more his strength/enjoyment.My dd is doing extension/specialist here in Oz..but only because she really enjoys it&her degree choice is engineering.

clary · 29/07/2021 07:05

actually @TeanupFlutter the H paper goes to a 4 and in recent years there has been a 3 grade on it too tho it is supposed to bottom out at 4. I totally agree with the rest of your post tho.

hellsbells99 · 29/07/2021 08:16

Go for the higher at the moment but with extra tuition/help and see how he goes.

OnTheBenchOfDoom · 29/07/2021 10:56

I have said this before but flight paths from KS2 SATs are ridiculous, learning is not linear and predicted grades are just a guide, not set in stone.

Ds1 is now 18 so his yr9 report is the old school number followed by a letter but his yr10 AP1 report which comes out in November shows him as a 5 for maths, probably 4+ for the end of yr9. He actually got a high 9 at GCSE. Similar with other subjects too. He just had some great teachers and a confidence boost, put in a bit of extra work at home and achieved incredible grades.

I cannot believe that a school determines the paper a child will sit for GCSE based on year 9 end of year grades. The decision is made around February of yr11 when they submit them for their papers but it seems like they are trying to work out which students go in which sets.

I am sure @noblegiraffe can recommend some resources for yr9 going into yr10 to cement your son's maths knowledge. It is also summer where he will have loads of time and some of which he can dedicate to maths if he wants to push his grade up.

We were told that they had to be a comfortable grade 6 to be put in for the higher paper as lots of content is aimed at the top grades and can be disconcerting for those at the lower end if they keep coming across questions they cannot answer.