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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Why are schools allowed to discriminate on religious grounds?

72 replies

OrangeApples · 27/06/2021 16:35

I understand this could be very contraversial topic, and I will say in advance I do not know the equality law inside out, but, I was reading a thread earlier about catholic schools and it got me thinking.

Why are schools allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion, when, under the equality act 2010, religion is a protected characteristic?

Surely, applying the equality act, schools can’t say they will take religious children over non-religious or those of a different religion. Therefore, aren’t the admissions policies discriminatory and therefore going against equality.

For example, a catholic school takes catholics before all others. Well that’s discrimination isn’t it? If a catholic school was to just accept on distance like all other schools but retain the catholic ethos and teachings that that would be ok because they aren’t discriminating are they? (Just using Catholicism as an example, this point also applies to jewish, Sikh, Muslim and any other religious schools).

I really am just interested to know how this manages to bypass the equality laws.

OP posts:

Ladylokidoki · 27/06/2021 18:19

It would indeed be daft, but it fits theOP's thoughts on this.

Sorry, I worded it poorly. I was just giving a reason why that rule is there.

Like most rules about schools, there's a reason.

You could even say catchments are discriminatory. Because houses near good schools are often more expensive because of the good school. Lower income families end up being priced out.

But how would we pick who went to what school? And I don't think kids travelling across cities is a great idea, which would happen if we went with lottery style.

scochran · 27/06/2021 18:19

Non denomination does not mean non religious like you might expect though. It means non denomination Christian. It's really interesting, have a Google. Most schools are found not to comply bit there is requirement for religious assembly, different in England and Scotland . Recently changed to Time for Reflection for some.

FrippEnos · 27/06/2021 18:22

SoupDragon

I included them as Catholic schools are not (entirely) funded by the state either, some are entirely funded by the diocese or partially funded by the diocese and partially privately funded.

FrippEnos · 27/06/2021 18:23

Ladylokidoki

Brighton and Hove is lottery based and has had no end of issues.

AlexaShutUp · 27/06/2021 18:24

You could even say catchments are discriminatory. Because houses near good schools are often more expensive because of the good school. Lower income families end up being priced out.

Catchments are very unfair, and I'd love to get rid of them. However, it's a question of what to put in their place. I believe Brighton tried some kind of lottery system, but not sure that it worked. I agree that kids having to travel across cities isn't desirable.

So it's difficult to get rid of all discrimination in school admissions, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't get rid of some.

FrippEnos · 27/06/2021 18:25

AlexaShutUp

Academies have played hard and fast with the rules, including pricing poor families out and behaviour policies that end up with the exclusion of SEND pupils and other behaviours that they consider undesirable.

AlexaShutUp · 27/06/2021 18:25

@FrippEnos

SoupDragon

I included them as Catholic schools are not (entirely) funded by the state either, some are entirely funded by the diocese or partially funded by the diocese and partially privately funded.

The issue that people have is with state funding. If it's entirely funded by the diocese and/or by parents, then I think that's a different matter.

Ladylokidoki · 27/06/2021 18:27

Brighton and Hove is lottery based and has had no end of issues.

Wow, I had no idea some were doing it. Even for secondary school pupils that would be a pain.

For my Catholic secondary and college I travelled almost 2 hours per day. Honestly, I wouldn't want my kids doing that. I bought my house specifically because it was in a fairly cheap area, but not too far from where ds will go in September 2022.

I would be devastated, if they introduced lottery system here. Public transport is awful as we are an old mining town, that no one really cares about. I would move again, if ds had to go to a school far away.

AlexaShutUp · 27/06/2021 18:27

@FrippEnos

AlexaShutUp

OK, fair enough. That isn't really the case around here, but it shouldn't be allowed to happen.

SimonJT · 27/06/2021 18:30

@AlexaShutUp

I don't have a problem with religious people sending their kids to religious schools. I just don't want those schools to get state funding.

Yes this is how I feel.

Ladylokidoki · 27/06/2021 18:31

The issue that people have is with state funding. If it's entirely funded by the diocese and/or by parents, then I think that's a different matter.

I agree. But I do wonder how many parents against religious schools know that some are not state funded. And which ones are and aren't, when they are upset they can't get their child in.

My secondary was, popular because it was one of the top schools for gcse results. The top 3 in our city, were us and 2 private. So if you couldn't afford private we were the next choice.

There was alot of people complaining about it when I was about 14. I don't even know if the school was part funded or all funded by the diocese. I wonder if those parents knew either.

Again, despite performing well I still wouldn't pick it for my kids. But I don't consider myself Catholic anymore anyway.

Ladylokidoki · 27/06/2021 18:32

This is so true.

AlexaShutUp · 27/06/2021 18:33

I do know that our local Catholic school gets state funding. But I'm quite involved in local education in different ways, so I take the point that many parents wouldn't necessarily know the difference.

motogogo · 27/06/2021 18:35

There's 2 kinds of nominally religious schools, aided or controlled, only one can pick students. Village primaries which are often c of e cannot discriminate on the grounds of faith because they are aided, it's historical because the church owns the land from when the church ran the school (before state education)

BiBabbles · 27/06/2021 19:12

Because of how the school system was built and is still maintained in the UK -- it's already creaking in many areas, and if religious institutions were pulled out of the system entirely, then it would fall apart (especially with how many of the buildings are owned by churches), so those institutions get a say until things change dramatically.

Some schools prioritize children of that faith. Some don't. My local Church of England secondary doesn't, faith doesn't play a role in admission, but the school does prioritize children who are eligible for Free School Meals.

Until the system changes, yes religious group get more say. There are no secular schools in the UK, the closest is 'non-denominational' ones who interpret the law broadly/ignore it. There are those campaigning against this, but the swing to academy trusts doesn't really give me much hope it'll happen anytime soon, giving parents who want a secular education pretty much the option to home educate.

AquaticLicence · 27/06/2021 19:50

Got to admit I always wonder why someone would want their child to attend a religious school, if they aren't that religion

All our local schools are Catholic or CoE. If you're not religious you don't get into the local schools. If there were non religious alternatives that would be ok, but the choice is local religious school or travel miles away.

Ladylokidoki · 27/06/2021 20:11

Wow, I have never heard of that. In our city we have lots of non domestic schools. There really needs to be a better balance I some areas.

strigiform · 27/06/2021 20:12

With secondaries, the reason non-religious people want religious schools is sometimes that they're just much better schools. Our local (ultra hard to get into) C of E school gets results on a par with a grammar school, in spite of being academically non-selecticlve. There are varying views on why this is. Perhaps because the strong church ethos lends itself to hard work. Perhaps because it's only those who are quite invested in their children's education who get a place (you need to start planning your church attendance years in advance to get in). Perhaps because it's so hard to get in that the tiny catchment also means that the school has become financially selective as well. Perhaps the religion thing is entirely coincidental, and it just happens to be a great school. Whatever the reason, the results are fantastic, which is why parents want to send their kids there.

FrippEnos · 27/06/2021 20:39

AlexaShutUp

The *OP's post was about religion.

But it has moved on to funding.

3cats4poniesandababy · 27/06/2021 20:58

Rather than demand the church/religious schools accept all people maybe stat demanding other schools up their game... let's not race to he bottom.

I am all in favour of religious schools personally. If you want a none religious school choose a non religious one. Surely we should be encouraging options and choice not taking that away from people. I strongly believe thr state Church school I went to got excellent results was that anything to do the school maybe a small amount but much of it was because parents were invested in their child's education, they took their children to museums, they fostered the importance of edixetions and supported their children. Many of us would have done well regardless if school.

strigiform · 27/06/2021 21:37

Trouble is, there often isn't any genuine choice. At primary level, particularly with village schools, there might well only be one school that a child could get into (this was certainly true for us, and even if we had been able to get into a neighbouring village school, they're all C of E too). At secondary level, where a church school is oversubscribed, there probably won't be enough spaces to go round for all the genuinely church-going families in the area - partly because lots of places are taken by families who have temporarily 'found god' for a couple of years until they get in.

I agree that it would be great if all schools were equally good so there would be less of a bun fight to get into the best, and parents could then choose more according to ethos rather than 'good or less good'. But even that wouldn't take away the church/non-church thing. To go back to village primaries - you can't just open another school in a village to give people a choice between church school and not - there wouldn't be enough children to fill it. And it's not very desirable to have loads of parents driving to another village to get to a non-church school, even if they could get a place. Hard to see how you can introduce religious choice in that scenario.

Handsumcab · 27/06/2021 21:43

@OrangeApples this topic comes up on Mumsnet every few weeks. You can spend a lot of time debating it here (been there, done that) but if you want to get answers more efficiently there is a lot of relevant information on the websites of Humanists UK or (better, in my view) the Fair Admissions Campaign. For example, try this link: fairadmissions.org.uk/why-is-this-an-issue/

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