Educate me about catholic secondary schools please

[JammyDodgers3]

I have been researching Catholicism/catholic secondary schools and there are a couple of things that worry/concern me that I was hoping someone could explain more about.

Original/inherent sin - from what I can work out Adam ate an apple and because of that everyone is a born sinner.
Are children actually told they are all sinners? This worries me and seems, to me anyways, a bit demoralising.

Praying/church attendance
Again, I accept this is part of attending a catholic school. Are children forced to pray? Will they be punished if they don’t? Can they just sit quietly and respectfully through the prayer/church service if they choose to?

PSHE/RSE
Ive heard/read worrying stories that these subjects aren’t taught properly? For example, teaching that condoms are evil because they stop procreation. Are stories like this wide spread? Does it happen in all catholic schools or are these just scare stories that hit the media?

Anything else?
Is there anything else about catholic schools that people think I should know or find out about?

Do you want your child to have a catholic education?If not it may not be the right school. It sounds like you don’t agree with a lot of the fundamental elements of a religious school education.

From my experience (20 years ago), we said prayers twice per day at registration. No one actively refused but whether everyone engaged I don’t know. Also had extra masses on certain feast days like Ash Wednesday, these were compulsory. My DC go to a catholic primary and this is still the case for them today.

RE GCSE was compulsory; yes to learning about original sin, purgatory, hell, 10 commandments etc. We had to know The Creed off by heart & what it meant.

We were taught about contraception; I think that’s compulsory for all schools.

I was educated in Catholic schools and have actively avoided that option for my children. Won’t comment on current teaching as my experiences were decades ago, but there are some things worth considering are still be true. Depending on where you live, the catchment areas can be very large - so children may end up with friends spread out across a wide area, or even a whole county. Also, the slightly different funding structure for Catholic schools can result in a lot of pressure on parents to contribute in different ways.
I’d also be very careful about what results are actually telling you and try to find accurate local context. Not sure about anywhere else, but in some London Catholic primaries, there’s huge tutoring pressure to prepare children for selective secondaries. The selection process seems to be functioning to select only the children who are given the advantage of intensive tutoring and are willing to work. Those children should do well anywhere, so great results from those secondaries doesn’t necessarily mean they are brilliant schools.

Why would you put your kid in a catholic school if you're not catholic?

You're obviously not Catholic, and seem rather naive about Catholicism, so why would you do this?

Depends where you are, but even if you are Catholic, you might struggle getting your kids into a Catholic school. If you're not - no chance.

As a non-religious person, there is zero chance I would put my child in a Catholic school.

Thanks all for your comments so far.

Thinking about sending DS (and possibly the other 2 DC later down the line) to a catholic secondary school.

Willing to be honest in that I know very little about Catholicism and never thought we would be in the position of actually having to consider a catholic school.

Up until a couple of years ago there were two good non-denominational secondaries both of which we would have got a place at and we would have been happy with. However, with the situation in that of the 4 secondaries in town, one is an outstanding non-denominational we have no chance of a place at any more and haven’t done for the past 2 years, the second is an outstanding catholic which we also don’t have a chance of a place at, the third is an inadequate non-denominational and the fourth is the good catholic school, I am willing to be educated. I also accept that if we do send DS to a catholic school then the ethos is catholic and that it should be embraced/respected.

Also
a) I am sorry if anything I’ve said/asked is offensive or inappropriate or insensitive. I really don’t mean to be, I just know nothing and trying to find out more.
b) No, we are not going to start suddenly being religious for a school place. If we get one it will be a fairly given one.
c) Yes, we do have a chance of a place. We are within the ‘all other children’ category cut off distance and have been forever according to school admissions team.

There is a real range of how ‘religious’ the ethos of a catholic school is and how it is implemented day time day. I would research the particular one you are looking at. Ask other parents and children that go there. How much are the ideas you have written about pushed there?

[As an aside, when I was at a Catholic secondary many years ago it didn’t offer RE GCSE/O level on the basis that “you couldn’t measure the love of our Lord” ]

You're obviously not Catholic, and seem rather naive about Catholicism, so why would you do this?

Maybe the Catholic school is the best performing school in the area. If OP is a tax payer she is helping to fund it, so why should her DC not use it?

I also accept that if we do send DS to a catholic school then the ethos is catholic
Well, I'm glad you've taken on board that much at least
What makes you think your children will get a place at a Catholic secondary school?

DS at catholic secondary - he’s baptised Catholic and I am a lapsed one, DH not religious in the slightest. DS didn’t go to a Catholic primary and knew nothing about ‘being ‘ a Catholic. He chose to apply there over other great local schools - we are in an area where we have great choice of excellent secondaries. He’s been very happy there. Yes he has to attend prayers/Mass etc but he has always challenged ideas in RE etc and is currently doing EPQ on the mythology surrounding Judas! Compulsory RE GCSE included one paper on Catholic Christianity and then second paper on Judaism. We don’t contribute anything financially except £5 a month voluntary contribution- which is really voluntary. I think like other schools, it can vary hugely as to Catholicness of a Catholic school! I went to same school in 1970s as a church goer at the time and it was equally fine and broad minded. None of his friends go to Church or believe despite being Catholic.

In RE lessons in Year 7 he knew absolutely nothing but learned enough to get 9 in the GCSE and ended up as one of his favourite subjects.

Definitely friends can be more widespread- we are in North Yorkshire and kids come from over an hour away as well as local.

@TawnyPippit that made me smile a little. Although compulsory GCSE RE doesn’t bother me in the slightest. In fact, it might be beneficial so my DC don’t end up as clueless about religion as I have.

@GreyhoundG1rl because around 35% of the school isn’t catholic. The catholic inspection report states this. And the school has stopped accepting children in the ‘all other children’ category for many years.

I think I need to clarify what I was getting at with the first statement. I understand it will be taught as part of catholic theology but I was interested in whether the schools actually told the children openly they were all born sinners.

As PPs have said it very much varies school by school, I work at and my DC go to Catholic schools and they do vary. Although they are hugely over subscribed so admit a very low percentage of non catholics.

They've never had a teacher directly saying to them they are born sinners DD has just finished her compulsory RE GCSE at her school and the three papers are Catholic Christianity, Judaism and Philosophy & Ethics, the last part she particularly enjoyed, it raised lots of great debates in class. RE is highly regarded by universities it uses a lot of essay based skills.

In regards to your contraception question IMO schools very much acknowledge that they need to be taught a full sex education curriculum she has had a nurse demonstrate the use of condoms etc.

If you acknowledge there will be a degree of day to days things that your DC may feel out of the loop in such as Mass etc there are many benefits, the schools I'm involved in have a really lovely community feel, do incredible amounts of charity work which the kids all are involved in, achieve fantastic results and have in general high standards of behaviour.

My non catholic Jewish DC actually went to a catholic school. We ended up with the school because we got none of our preferences and at the time the school was inadequate and none of the catholics wanted it so we missed out on the other schools because of distance.

I had some similar concerns, but they turned out to just be concerns and worries which had come about because of the messages in the news and stereotypes that get thrown our way all the time. There was nothing to worry about.

None of the DC have ever been told they are born sinners. This is touched on in RE lessons, but this is expected because it’s part of catholic teachings. As PP said, RE covers Catholic Christianity and theology, Judaism and Philosphy and Ethics. It is a very valuable subject where the DC get to question beliefs and the world. It’s led to some very interesting discussions at home as well (good intellectual ones).

PSHE has covered everything that has to be covered by law in the same way a non-catholic School has to cover it. My DC have had a very good PSHE education.

Don’t worry about the praying. They can’t punish a child for not praying. Who is even going to know your child isn’t fully participating if they put their hands together and keep their mouth shut and be respectful towards other. Just accept its part of the life of the school and embrace it. It also teaches DC that’s there are times in life when you will be the odd one out and just be respectful and tolerant towards others. Valuable life lesson.

If you accept the catholic ethos as a way of providing moral guidelines and not as something that your DC has to start believing in if they don’t want to then you’ll be fine. There’s nothing wrong with a set of moral guidelines for living your life by.

Despite my reluctance when we were initially offered the catholic school, I have actually sent all 4 of my DC to the same catholic school. (I even appealed for the school for my youngest - which we won thankfully).
Your worried because you don’t understand Catholicism. Trust me, once you have a DC in a catholic school you’ll soon learn its nothing to worry about.

Many catholic schools don’t receive government funding.

@Willwebebuyingnumber11

Many catholic schools don’t receive government funding.

That's not quite true, the buildings and land of Catholic schools are owned by the diocese, who provide 10% of funding, state voluntary aided schools are then funded in the same way as other schools through the LEA. Catholic schools that are academies are fully state funded.

Many catholic schools don’t receive government funding

All Catholic state schools receive government funding paid for by the taxpayer. Same for C of E, Jewish, Moslem etc.

In many cases, those same taxpayers are prevented from sending their children to those schools, because they do not share the relevant religious beliefs.

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06972/SN06972.pdf

@UncomfortableSilence and @BangersAndMash12345, thank you. That’s very reassuring.

I particularly like your point about ‘moral guidelines’ bangersandmash, that’s a very good way to look at it.

I don’t know why, but when I was reading about some parts of Catholicism I got, scared I suppose, that the school would be telling my DC they were a horrible human being and there was nothing they could do about it. I appreciate that sounds silly.

I’m glad PSHE/RSE is a full curriculum and taught the same a school all other schools. I possibly read too much into the scare stories in the media. Feeling a bit silly about it all now

My ds is in year 7 of a Catholic high school (private if that makes any difference). He didn't go to a Catholic primary and is baptised C of E.

They have prayers once a day, the Catholic priest pops into school to say mass once a month (or does zoom in Covid times!)

This year in RS he has done the sacraments, the order of the mass, bible referencing, what the Priest's vestments (robes) symbolise . Next year they will cover other religions starting with Islam.

In Biology he has covered human reproduction. They also had sex education.

Having attended a Catholic school in the 1990s I have avoided them for my own children.

I can't discuss modern approaches in Catholic schools, however, I was taught contraception and abortion was morally wrong. I was told I was a sinner and needed to repent. I have only, in my 40s, been able to shake off my guilt complex.

I would wager Catholic education can be academically thorough, but at the cost of it being stricter with regards to personal viewpoints and freedoms.

You also don't sound as if you are very knowledgeable about Catholicism, if you don't mind me saying. I'm not being unkind. It is a way of life that intertwines itself deeply, steeped in history, the patriarchy and hypocrisy. It isn't always a quick Google. The very idea that Boris Johnson would've married for the THIRD time in a Catholic church blows my mind. I'm sure his other marriages weren't annulled?!

but I was interested in whether the schools actually told the children openly they were all born sinners

"Schools" won't, but individual teachers may do - there's no way that Mumsnet can help you to predict whether they do or not. My guess is that it would be unlikely in a Catholic school with such a high percentage of non-Catholics. But you know your children best - how are they likely to react if it happens? It happened to me when I was 14 in the late 80's and one of about 10% of non-Catholics in a Catholic school. It was an enlightening experience and tipped the balance from being me being simply curious about and compliant with the ethos, to start questioning and challenging a lot of what I was taught in RE. That's a good thing, so not something to be regretted. Your children may find that being in a minority has its upsides in the long term, especially if they are critical thinkers with curious minds.

The scoop I went too in the 90's was very Catholic. Prayers daily. Mass on feast days etc. Contraception was glossed over and there was nothing about healthy relationships etc. Though this as 25 years ago. The schools in my diocese remain like that. They all have lay chaplains etc.

Yes, the church teaches Otho all sin, but that is washed clean in the waters of baptism!