Switching to combined science at this stage in Y11?

[Nowfeeltheneedtopost]

My friend’s DD has been advised by her school to switch to Combined Science GCSE rather than triple science in order to secure two higher GCSE marks rather than three lower ones. I was surprised she could switch as late as this but, most importantly, my friend is trying help her child make best decision. Does anyone have similar experience or suggestions? Thanks.

Aren't most schools already well through the process of collating their evidence for marks? Your friend needs to be asking very detailed questions around the assessment process I would think.

It seems extremely surprising to be swapping this late.
The school will have to pay late entry fees I think.
(For complicated reasons my DD switched from combined to just Biology but that was at the start of the academic year.)

Things to think about:

• did she take triple as an option or in same time as double (ie Will she be 1 GCSE 'down' if she swaps, and do you care)
• are they advising loads of people or just your DD (have they realised they haven't taught the extra content?)
• what grades did she get for the mocks?
• is one science stronger or weaker than the others as this could 'average' grades rather than say an 8,5,5 she might get 7,6
• does it matter to her re e.g. 7,7 v 6,6,6

The extra content in triple isn't meant to be harder, just more. So apart from the revision load (which you might think she has already done?) I'm not sure how grades can go up by switching down at this point unless the school hasn't taught sufficient of the extra triple content.

I did in fact query swapping back to combined science a couple of weeks back.
School said
a) late entry fees
b) might cause external checkers to query/look extra hard at what was going on, which could impact both DD and the rest of the cohort.
c) wouldn't work for us anyway for other reasons

Thanks for comments which reinforce my concerns. So far, it is Head of science suggesting this directly to my friend’s DD. They suggested grade boundary differences meant they would get higher mark on combined science than on individual. My DS is two years younger so only starting GCSE course in sept but from everything I’ve read on here that didn’t make sense. As @TeenMinusTests said, I understood combined was simply covering less content.

I don’t know details of grades or predictions but it seems to be about getting 55 in combined rather than 5,4,3 in triple. I don’t think they are taking them for a level.

It would result in them having one less GCSE (9 instead of 10).

I suggested to friend that she should speak to head of science directly and your suggested questions about assessments etc are helpful.

I just find it all a bit odd and want to help her make best decision for her DD.

@Nowfeeltheneedtopost, I work with schools.

Your friend should follow the School's advice.

Sorry, forgot to respond on whether advice is being given to large number of children (i.e if school thinking they haven’t taught sufficient content). Friend knows one other child who has been advised to switch.

Thanks @JBX2013

Usually she would follow school’s advice but this seems surprisingly late to make such a change. Her DD had mocks in Nov/Dec and has had assessments last two weeks with other assessments planned for late may/early June. Neither of us can understand why changing to combined science now will help her DD get higher grades!

Well, I'd take 5,5 over 5,4,3 as a 3 isn't a pass so it would 'look better' to have a solid pass for combined rather than triple with one not pass.

(And before anyone jumps in, I know a 3 is a level1 pass, but it isn't a GCSE level2 pass).

However the school shouldn't be discussing grades at the moment, and it all sounds a bit iffy.

I know that at my DDs' school, they teach all children as if they will do separate sciences, but then decide whether they will do the trilogy or separate sciences in year 11. It's late to be switching, but I doubt it's about content coverage.

It seems odd that they think she will get 55 in combined but only 543 in triple. Combined essentially covers 2/3 of the material of the triple award, so this would suggest that it's the breadth of material that she's not comfortable with (the papers are equally hard!). Did she struggle during the recent lockdown and perhaps hasn't learnt the more recent material so well? That would be reason for changing.

Thanks @Lougle that’s helpful. I think her DD has done less well in the assessments so far than they/school thought might happen and hence the consideration of changing to combined.

Yes @UserAtRandom, I understand she struggled in lockdown to stay engaged and learn new stuff.

Can I just check please, the suggestion that the “grade boundaries” would mean likely higher grades in combined is wrong? You all seem to be saying what I thought which is that difference between triple and combined is about content and not grade boundaries???

Looking at the Edexcel grade boundaries for 2019 the percentage needed for a grade 5 was 56.5% for Biology, 58% for Chemistry, 65% for Physics and 56% for Combined Science. All foundation papers.

They are totally separate exams.

Double Science is in fact Combined Science. It's equivalent to 2 GCSE's and as you say has less content.

Triple Science is actually 3 separate GCSE's in Biology, Chemistry & Physics. Each subject has different grade boundaries. Studetns study the same modules as those who do double science but with extra modules as well. However (under normal exam circumstances) the actual exams are totally different. There are no overlapping questions. Grade boundaries on double science may be very different to those on the separate science papers.

@Nowfeeltheneedtopost , I understand yours and your friend's concerns. Nevertheless, they should have the conversation with the Teacher and then follow the advice. That's what I would do.

Even for a STEM career afterwards, this will be fine. Additional science subjects can always be taken later if needed, again guided by the Teacher. Finally, the current guidance will surely help with Assessed Levels ('grades'), an important consideration.

My yr 11 boy finishes his GCSE's tomorrow, he has done triple science. I know assessment dates differ but even so, that's a bit late in the game to be advising change.

This sounds dodgy to me.
Firstly schools shouldn't be talking about grades with parents.
Secondly the papers for Combined Science contain different questions to the papers for separate Sciences.
Combined Science biology paper 1 is shorter than biology Paper 1 but has different questions.
So if the school are trying to change from Triple to Combined after doing assessments then that could be dodgy.

meh. the whole process is 'dodgy' this year.

if the school are giving advice then personally I'd take it. they must be sure the switch can still be made or they wouldn't offer.

double award you cover part of each curriculum. maybe she's better at the bits that are in the combined paper rather than the full ones? got to be better to go for 2 grade 5s than 5,4,3?

@catndogslife some schools are actually giving out raw scores to students even though lots are not. So students already know their rough grade.

I would take the advice of the school and do the combined. Clearly it is seen as a win win, the child gets two good passing grades rather than the 3 in a science which is a subject in the buckets isn't it?

OP, I'm Head of Science and whilst I would advise that in a normal year, I don't really understand from what you've said, why that would work?

If the school are doing papers, they are different exam papers, so the grade boundaries are irrelevant.

If the school are looking at individual topics and maybe the girl has performed better in assessments on combined only content and not done so well on triple content, it would kind of make sense.

But the whole thing is still slightly iffy. Grades shouldn't be discussed with students at the stage (unless you want to open yourself up to all sorts of issues!). The late entry fee alone at this stage would be very high and be enough to make this a non starter.

I'd advise your friend to wait until the school contact her/him. It sounds like it could possibly have been the teacher making a comment 'in hindsight' rather than making a suggestion. Like I said, I have done what the HOD is suggesting many times. But usually way back when we are making entries the first time. It's ALWAYS been the best decision for the student and they've ended up doing very well in the end.

Thanks all, really helpful to get your views.
@user1471530109 that makes lots of sense about a usual year and this one. Also helpful to understand they are different papers. I fully agree that - normally - taking recommendation of school to do combined would be sensible. This just feels so late and halfway through the assessments they've already done.