Moving near a 'good school', state or private... advice needed!

[DadManners]

OK, this is a bit of a brain dump, so thanks for your patience if you get through it all! I'm hoping you fine people might help me sort out the mess of thoughts I have about DD's education. She's hurtling towards Year 5 so we're now giving serious thought to options for secondary schools.

It has been bothering me (and DW) for some time that our local comps are not exactly inspiring, either in terms of results and Ofsted ratings, or anecdotal feedback from parents (tends to be mixed to put it mildly). I know parents are prone to thinking their child is some sort of prodigy so am trying not to fall into that trap, but what I can say is that DD has bags of curiosity, really good language skills, good motivation and generally a positive attitude to learning, so quite academic on the whole. Feedback from her teacher confirms all of that, and although it's a really nice primary school, she does seem to be coasting a bit (although the teacher reckons he does give her 'stretch' work when required). Anyway, if she continues like this then we really want to try and maximise her opportunity to learn and not let her down by just sending her off to the nearest school where she might not get the challenge and input she needs. I remember a learning-related saying along the lines that that if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room, but equally, nobody wants their child thrown in at the deep end so they struggle and become unhappy and demotivated - it's finding that balance.

All of this means that we're looking a bit further afield (thanks to remote working) and considering whether to try and orchestrate a house move to be nearer a "good school" (comp or grammar - working towards the 11+ if need be), and/or considering the private education route. I've always had reservations about private schooling but some independent schools do seem to have a genuinely different ethos - we're interested in those with a rounded approach, good sense of community and pastoral care as well as respectable results (whereas some seem purely obsessed with their place in the rankings, regardless of the nice fluffy words on their website). On the other hand, they're excruciatingly expensive (the financing of it is a whole other discussion, but we're working on that) and I baulk at the idea of shelling out the best part of £100k or whatever when there are some perfectly good schools that we've already contributed to through our taxes and still produce well-educated and well-rounded individuals with great potential.

So... for starters, I suppose my questions are:

1. To parents who have gone through the rigmarole of moving home in order to bag a place at a good state school - how did that work out for you? In our case the move could potentially be quite far (e.g. Midlands to Yorkshire). Presumably we would need to find a house (initially renting) within the catchment area and then apply and hope for the best, which seems very risky if there aren't good fallback options in the area. We are luckily mortgage-free now so could probably afford to rent somewhere modest for a short while without selling up first (still cheaper than paying school fees!).

1. To parents who have gone down the private route - was it worth it, in your experience? I suppose it can be hard to judge if you don't have the state school experience to compare it to, but did it meet your expectations, did you encounter any problems with DC feeling unduly pressurised, out of their depth, or otherwise unhappy? And just how much did you end up paying for extras on top of the term fees? We'd probably be looking at day school rather than boarding, although it's interesting to see that some schools offer flexi-boarding as a sort of best of both worlds.

What is really messing with my head at the moment is the logistics of it all; really not sure about the timeline for application, outcome and co-ordinating a house move around it all, and there is probably a lot more we need to swot up on in general, but hopefully the above questions might help get our thoughts in order and figure out some next steps. TIA for any pearls of wisdom!

My experience with private v state sector - DD1 goes to a private/exclusive girls school. She applied herself behind our back although was called so she could go to the scholarship exam.

DS goes to the local roughcomp. (which at the time of DD1 going to secondary, was in special measure)

Mostly the teaching is equal- in fact there are some teachers from DS school who have started teaching at DD1's school, but what you get at a private school is smaller class sizes and some very privileged children. Example - on a class day out, the mini bus stopped to get fuel and the girls wanted a snack, with an Aldi across the road. None of the girls, other than DD1, had stepped foot into Aldi

If I had to do it again, probably would want DD1 to go to local school. She doesn't have any local friends so she feels out of place at exclusive school where they all will get together and walk places, DD1 has to be invited taking a bit of the spontaneity out of the equation.

As far as the results of a school, yes, they can be an indication of the results, but not for your child. There are such vast resources now post lockdown with online tutoring, and online resources that there isn't such a gulf between state and private, I think. At one stage during lockdown, both DS and DD were doing live lessons on Teams with the only difference being that one was charging!

Some points around logistics in regards to state schools (not applicable to private schools who won't care where you live)

1. You'll need to be properly moved (living there, doctors, bills etc swapped over) by the secondary school application date (end of October).

1. If you don't sell your house and rent, you'll need to have moved a decent distance away or admissions may consider you are renting to game the system. If you do move from the Midlands to Yorkshire this is not an issue as it would be clear you weren't planning to return to your old house and commute to school. If you're only going to move a comparatively small distance and it's within reasonable travel time of your old house, this may be regarded as fraud.

1. Due to (1) and (2) you'll have to move your daughter to a different school in Year 6. As you would imagine, the more highly regarded schools are less likely to have places (though you may get lucky with someone moving out at the same time) so you may have to accept whatever place you get, or go through appeals (which you are of course not certain to win). Also you'd presumably like your daughter to go to a primary school where at least some children move on to your chosen secondary (continuity of friends) which might make finding an appropriate school even harder.

1. If you look at LEA websites you'll find admission information about who was accepted into various schools this year and on what basis. For example, it may be that only people living within a mile of School A were given places. Of course this changes year on year, but will give you an idea (if School B has never admitted anyone living 3 miles away in living memory, then moving 3 miles away and hoping, is probably a losing strategy). While you're there you should also check admissions criteria. These do vary by area.

Your learning statement about being the smartest in the room is valid if your child is going to be an outlier. But unless your child really is a genius, most schools (any sector) are going to have an least a solid cross section of children working at a similar ability level. As you allude to, it can actually be more demoralising to be bright but only rank average (or below average) in your school. Only you know how that might affect your DD.

@ilovemydogandMrObama

My experience with private v state sector - DD1 goes to a private/exclusive girls school. She applied herself behind our back although was called so she could go to the scholarship exam.

DS goes to the local roughcomp. (which at the time of DD1 going to secondary, was in special measure)

Mostly the teaching is equal- in fact there are some teachers from DS school who have started teaching at DD1's school, but what you get at a private school is smaller class sizes and some very privileged children. Example - on a class day out, the mini bus stopped to get fuel and the girls wanted a snack, with an Aldi across the road. None of the girls, other than DD1, had stepped foot into Aldi

If I had to do it again, probably would want DD1 to go to local school. She doesn't have any local friends so she feels out of place at exclusive school where they all will get together and walk places, DD1 has to be invited taking a bit of the spontaneity out of the equation.

As far as the results of a school, yes, they can be an indication of the results, but not for your child. There are such vast resources now post lockdown with online tutoring, and online resources that there isn't such a gulf between state and private, I think. At one stage during lockdown, both DS and DD were doing live lessons on Teams with the only difference being that one was charging!

Thanks, interesting points there, and at DD1 sneaking off and applying herself, that is impressive initiative and motivation!

Peer group is another concern I had (our DD has been in a few Aldis and Lidls in her time, although she prefers Sainsbury's ) but I know experiences vary on that front so I guess it comes down to the individual schools and cohorts, which makes it a bit difficult to predict. DD is used to living with a fairly modest budget and being quite cost-conscious so if all her friends had ponies and lavish pastimes then it could get a bit awkward.

A good point about the online resources - hadn't really taken that into account.

Another thing to note since you mentioned Yorkshire, make sure you understand how selective schools work up here. A lot of schools with Grammar in the name aren’t the 11+ Requiring Grammar

So, your child is currently in yr4? So you have until October 2022 to move & be in a new area right? You’ll be applying for a 2023 intake?

I can’t help with State v Private but we did move for schools recently, primary in our case.

If you are making a significant move, I’d start looking now & do your research! Would you be moving for literally only school reasons or do you have friends/family in the new area? I assume maybe the latter or you’d simply look to move to a better school catchment closer to where you are now?

We moved in December, predominantly because of primary schools. While outstanding, we didn’t think our catchment primary was the right match for our daughter. So we moved to a completely new area (only 20 minutes away). I did a mountain of research prior to listing our house. I joined community Facebook groups & asked lots of questions, I contacted the council for their catchment area guidance & info on admissions ie. how far away the furthest child was admitted, how oversubscribed the closet schools were, if they took kids from outside catchment in some years or all years.. and then, once I had all that info, we would look at houses we liked and double checked. We’d check the school catchment & admissions data to see what would likely happen if we bought that particular house.

In the end, we actually bought a house in a terrible catchment, a school in special measures. However, from our research we knew that barring a complete mega baby boom in our area in 2017/18, we’d get into 3 other local schools. We didn’t get top choice, there seemingly was a baby boom in that area as they took 19/30 children from the siblings in catchment criteria 😱 But we did get second choice & we are delighted with it. There wasn’t much between our top 3, we eventually ranked them by how easy drop off/pickup would be 🙈

In my area, there are 2 secondary schools with distinct catchments. Both schools take children from outside catchment each year but the distance of that varies each year. Both are always oversubscribed. Both are ofsted ‘good’ but one has a slightly better local rep. But both are considered two of the best schools in the LA..

Research is your friend! Get as much info & data as you possibly can!

@UserTwice

Some points around logistics in regards to state schools (not applicable to private schools who won't care where you live)

1. You'll need to be properly moved (living there, doctors, bills etc swapped over) by the secondary school application date (end of October).

1. If you don't sell your house and rent, you'll need to have moved a decent distance away or admissions may consider you are renting to game the system. If you do move from the Midlands to Yorkshire this is not an issue as it would be clear you weren't planning to return to your old house and commute to school. If you're only going to move a comparatively small distance and it's within reasonable travel time of your old house, this may be regarded as fraud.

1. Due to (1) and (2) you'll have to move your daughter to a different school in Year 6. As you would imagine, the more highly regarded schools are less likely to have places (though you may get lucky with someone moving out at the same time) so you may have to accept whatever place you get, or go through appeals (which you are of course not certain to win). Also you'd presumably like your daughter to go to a primary school where at least some children move on to your chosen secondary (continuity of friends) which might make finding an appropriate school even harder.

1. If you look at LEA websites you'll find admission information about who was accepted into various schools this year and on what basis. For example, it may be that only people living within a mile of School A were given places. Of course this changes year on year, but will give you an idea (if School B has never admitted anyone living 3 miles away in living memory, then moving 3 miles away and hoping, is probably a losing strategy). While you're there you should also check admissions criteria. These do vary by area.

Your learning statement about being the smartest in the room is valid if your child is going to be an outlier. But unless your child really is a genius, most schools (any sector) are going to have an least a solid cross section of children working at a similar ability level. As you allude to, it can actually be more demoralising to be bright but only rank average (or below average) in your school. Only you know how that might affect your DD.

Thank you, lots of sensible points there. We're in two minds about the prospect of having to move DD out of her current primary early and the impact on friendships - it's certainly uncomfortable to think we might tear her away from good friends and/or send her packing off to a school where she doesn't know anyone, but on the other hand, I know some parents are quite mercenary about that if they are confident that the education is worth the sacrifice and the child seems willing and robust enough to go along with it. Such a tough decision though.

That's a useful tip about the admission info on the LEA sites, we'll be having a good look into that.

Rather than quoting again (I wish MN had a like or thanks button!), I'll just say thanks @PinchingShoe and @HolmeH for those helpful points, and yes - 2023 intake (I knew we should have started this exercise sooner!) and we are keeping options open as regards moving within the area or moving further away but close-ish to family. Need to get reading up on the admissions info for all the potential options.

Really can't beat @UserTwice 's post, really good information. I'd also add to this point Your learning statement about being the smartest in the room is valid if your child is going to be an outlier. But unless your child really is a genius, most schools (any sector) are going to have an least a solid cross section of children working at a similar ability level. As you allude to, it can actually be more demoralising to be bright but only rank average (or below average) in your school. Only you know how that might affect your DD. There is some research to suggest that it's better to be at the top of a set than the bottom of the next set up, e.g. being at the top of set 2 than bottom of set 1 can improve results.

To parents who have gone through the rigmarole of moving home in order to bag a place at a good state school - how did that work out for you?

We moved (approx 200 miles) before dd started primary school, as we didn't like any of the schools local to us. We picked an incredible state primary which looked wonderful from the outset, but the reality actually far exceeded my expectations. I honestly couldn't have asked for a better primary education for my dd.

If I'm honest, I didn't really think that much about secondary education when we moved. It seemed a very long way off, and I think I just assumed that we could move again before secondary if we needed to. It isn't so simple in reality, because it's hard to disrupt a child who is happy and settled in a particular area!

I was distinctly underwhelmed by the range of state secondary options on offer to us. None of them were really what I was hoping for. We considered going private, as we could have afforded it, but I was quite underwhelmed by the private options as well. They had great facilities and smaller class sizes, but the quality of education on offer didn't appear to be any better than what was on offer in the state sector. I felt that it would have been a colossal waste of money.

For various reasons, moving again didn't seem a viable option, so dd went to the local state comp. She is now in year 11, finishing her GCSEs. Despite being underwhelmed by the school when we first looked at it, we have actually been really happy with it overall. She has really benefited from being around a more socially diverse cohort, and I value that. She has had fantastic teaching, particularly in her GCSE years, and is on track to get straight 9s in her GCSEs. She has a really lovely group of friends. She has also had some incredible extracurricular experiences. The school isn't perfect, by any means, but dd has been able to really thrive and succeed in that environment, so no regrets here.

As a pp, we moved prior to DC starting at primary school to an outstanding primary school but also with the firm intention of children going through the grammar school system.

I can give some advice in relation to the 11+ route - you really do need to do your homework. Yr 5 is a key year for preparation - you usually have to register with the grammar schools in May / June of Yr 5 for your child to be allowed to sit the 11+ in September / October of Yr 6.

In terms of preparation for the exams themselves - most people will tutor either themselves or with a tutor (its not a question of bright children always passing the tests, they need to be familiar with the type of questions etc - have a look at the elevenplusexams website where you can see what happens in the regions you're looking at), plus some schools do some prep - well, all independent schools prep heavily here, state schools to some extent. If you're not in your new 11+ area for Yr 5, you're going to have to put in the time to do that prep in your current area. You may not have 11+ tutors etc in your current area if its not a grammar school area. With that in mind, I would make sure wherever you choose has great options if your DD doesn't pass the 11+.

As above the schools / LEA website are useful for assessing over-subscription criteria - some grammars offer places on score, some on distance from school once you've got a qualifying score. Also check very carefully how you qualify as a permanent resident (so for us, we had to have disposed of our previous house and have at least a 12 month tenancy - all documents submitted to the LEA). In relation to when you have to be living at the new address, my DC's school says if you move after registering for the entrance exam (so May / June of Yr 5) they only use your new address in the 2nd round of offers - thats obviously different to the October (of Yr 6) date referred to above - just highlighting schools will be different and you need to check carefully.

My advice would be: don’t pay for private if you cannot see the distinct benefits. If your state schools are iffy, you probably will. Then analyse the cost and the benefit.

Ignore rich people. You won’t be mates with them and DD will probably fall into friendships with fairly standard people. Also do make sure you can afford this. Where I live £100,000 for 7 years would be woefully short. How much can you really afford without bankrupting yourselves?

I’m a believer in paying but but not fir mediocrity. You should see more than buildings and results. You should see A myriad of opportunities, great sport, art, theatre and music. An interesting curriculum. Confident pupils and ones whom you actually like. Are they enthusiastic about school?

State schools can be like sausage machines. Churning out dc but not nurturing them. Decide what you really want and move if you have to. You don’t have much time so you need to investigate everything very quickly.

I moved about 200 miles in the summer when dc1 was between y5 and y6. We put our house on the market around May bank holiday and we're in the new house in August.

He didn't get first choice ( closest ) primary school but dc1 got a place at first choice secondary based on our address. The primary he was allocated was a feeder for another great secondary so ended up in the situation of which great school to pick and we decided on the walkable one for local friends.

Primary was really good and walkable where we had been. Then DD did 11 plus and got into a very selective London grammar. Academically it was great, teaching was amazing but very little socialising and clubs and DD did really well academically there but hated it. DS was about to leave primary and has SN, did his open day at the very average very large comprehensive which had been told to put him with his friends - they left him alone and also he said there was a boy swearing at him all day who followed him round. I queried with the school and they didn't reply so wasn't keen on sending him there.

Looked at local alternatives, both others were difficult to get to and one was in a very unsafe area (a boy his age was killed there in front of other children a year or so after we left) so ruled those out. Had looked at private but would have meant me working full-time and wasn't convinced they would manage DS and thought the only thing can be certain of is the fees.

So we moved which did mean me largely stopping work but we could afford that. We moved to a beautiful thatched cottage in a village with an outstanding secondary the children can walk to and its been brilliant. We bought before we sold but now old house is sold and we went straight to 1 on the waiting list after we moved as we were so close to the school. Children love being 5 mins walk from school, its an hour back from DDs day which she can spend with friends and also clubs are there like air cadets, gym, music so she can learn to fly a plane etc. Both children love the school and DD is doing 11 subjects and predicted almost all 9s and has competed in top international maths competitions for A level students already in year 10. Issues we had was year she moved she got put in sets of person who left which meant in French she was put in the lowest set despite being top of the year in grammar and therefore often had teachers who spoke no languages and had to drop second language as can only do 1. But the maths teaching is way ahead of the girls grammar. They struggled with DS SN initially and I've had to work with school a lot but he's getting there and doing very well academically, certain in maths / science / computing and they are heavy on that there. So its worked out very well for us and feeds into an amazing sixth form and hopefully by time DS leaves a small maths specialist sixth form linked to the university.

I would do lots of research. I went round schools I was interested in, chatted to the teachers (generally teachers often swap between state and private but you can get smaller class sizes and very selective entry and also less turnover in ones we saw). It's worth checking the turnover of staff in subjects like maths, science, languages - obviously schools don't advertise this but speak to parents or ask the pupils / teachers. On average even with attainment and family background taken into account private schools do get better results but nowadays more higher education establishments are adjusting their offers. I also considered the children taking me round and whether this was how I would want my child to be. I went to university with about 80% private school children and even though I outperformed almost all of them they found it much easier to get high paying jobs though they seemed to aim for money, I wanted a job I enjoyed. At the grammar 27/30 in DDs class said they wanted to be doctors, she was 1 of 3 who chose something different. At the comprehensive its much wider variety but sometimes there's a lack of guidance on earnings/ career consequences. But I think if you have time to support your child and find a good state school they can thrive and you don't need to pay for private.

For the best privates and grammars you need to look at the entrance tests. If your dd is y5 you will need to apply for senior by end of October, private may already have started their admissions.

@Historytoo

Really can't beat *@UserTwice 's post, really good information. I'd also add to this point Your learning statement about being the smartest in the room is valid if your child is going to be an outlier. But unless your child really is a genius, most schools (any sector) are going to have an least a solid cross section of children working at a similar ability level. As you allude to, it can actually be more demoralising to be bright but only rank average (or below average) in your school. Only you know how that might affect your DD.* There is some research to suggest that it's better to be at the top of a set than the bottom of the next set up, e.g. being at the top of set 2 than bottom of set 1 can improve results.

My rule of thumb for looking at secondaries for a very bright DD was "Is there a whole sets-worth of kids getting A/A (7/8/9 now)? If so, she'll have a peer group." I was far less worried about the 5A-C rate or progress/attainment 8.

She's at the local comp in an area with no grammars, and a lot of very bright kids. She commented that she wouldn't have wanted to go to a selective private school as she feels more confident for being at the top. (Not to mention she knows full well that a private school would set considerably more homework. Her school sets very little, and it's mostly revision - which she doesn't bother with and still gets the marks.)

The setting one involves a certain amount of psychology. I used to find that there were some (usually girls) who did better for being at the top of set 2, and some (usually boys) who did better for being at the bottom of set 1, where they would have to concentrate to keep up (and them being in set 1 was usually good for the pupils in set 2, too).

I moved from London to Home Counties near a very lovely school... no grammar here, but we are surrounded by them and private schools.

It's worked out well for us... I have friends with kids in private school they hate it 🤷🏼‍♀️
My opinion would be do what you're comfortable with

My DC are at Private school in Y7 and 11 and we have no regrets.
Our State comps are in one case awful and in the other not great, although well thought of by some parents (but chances of us getting in were minimal)
We are in Yorkshire and the school fees are not much more than moving would cost without the disruption, plus we really like where we live.
The school is very very close to us and the kids are generally from not too far away, in fact DD can see her BFFs house from our bathroom window! We have found no snobbery or keeping up with the Joneses and while there are some very wealthy families there most of them are pretty normal.

Wow, such a lot of good advice and feedback! Thank you everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to lay out your thoughts. Definitely getting a better feel for things now (and hearing the clock ticking ever louder...).

@Ianthanum absolutely agree about psychology of sets. Does depend on child too. DDs go to a very large comp in a city with no grammar schools -though some kids do travel to the neighbouring county to them- but plenty of bright kids in the comp. DD1 was best at top of set 2 of 6 and got a good crop of GCSEs and is targeted for AAB at A level. DD2 is fiercely competitive (and more academic) and is happy in set 1. I went to a grammar school myself and was middle of everything, didn't shine at anything which left me with a massive inferiority complex about academic attainment. I actually worked damned hard for my degree at a Russell group university and got a first but even then felt I had to do a master's to "prove" myself. I was very conscious that the effects of secondary school can stay with you and I really didn't want a grammar school education for my daughters. I love their big, very mixed comprehensive and all it offers. We did get DD1 tutoring for her language GCSE because in a class of thirty there is less chance to practice speaking and she was very quiet in class. Certainly paid off as she got an 8 and a year of tutoring for an hour a week was far cheaper than private education

Private schools vary so, so much. Some are worth every penny and tick every box, others exist to follow a very particular educational or religious ethos, and others are very mediocre schools simply trading on the reputation of the term private school.

If you are very happily settled in your area but have mixed at best local schools, I would definitely have a look around the possible private options. Be critical about any glossy prospectus you are given! Have a good google and comb forums etc for mentions of the school. If your child is going into year 5 and you are in London or some other cities you will need to register very soon - i.e. I would be making a list of school and making enquiries with them now.

If you are not 100% sold on your location then I would definitely be considering moving. Preferably the summer after year 6 but whenever suits you as a family.

Examine your budget carefully - £100k will not pay for 7 years of independent education anymore in most schools.

Another choice is to move AND go private. If, for example, you move to to the midlands you might get more bang for your buck housing wise and have some capital available for fees.

The one thing I would caution you about it moving for a grammar school unless there is an amazing comp in the same area. Your DD can be the cleverest in her class but it just takes one off assessment or a few dozen other exceptionally bright and/or well tutored children and she won't have a place.

The other thing I will say is (though it can be hard to imagine when your DD is only mid-primary) you may like to consider further afield independent schools if they offer weekly or full boarding and you can afford them. They can offer a lot more than some squashed-in urban schools just by the virtue of having the space and the amount of time they have their pupils. Lots near London offer Mon-Thurs nights with escorted transport to and from the school, especially for year 7/8.