GCSE choices (particularly MFL)

[OuiOuiMonAmi]

DS will be doing the usual English/Maths/Science and has also chosen History and Music.

I'm unsure about the rest of his choices though. He hates French and teacher said that he'd probably be doing foundation tier if he picked it, so it's not an ideal subject for him. But all you hear is that you should have an MFL if at all possible! He is very bright (but probably not Oxbridge material) and he has no idea what he wants to do in the future. Bearing all that in mind, do you think it's a real mistake for him not to take an MFL?

Other subject choices he's interested are Computer Science and Electronics. I'm not sure if those choices are too 'soft' (though I hate that term) - especially with him choosing music as well.

I want him to enjoy his GCSEs so I'm not suggesting he should have all 'serious' subjects - but equally I don't want him to reduce his uni chances.

Interesting Ds is good at sciences, maths, history, CS and chose music

His weakness is French but I think he had to do a MFL

I’m hoping it won’t matter that much for university

Computer Science is not a soft option at all, are you thinking of ICT?

Sorry, I phrased it badly. I know that Comp Sci is a good GCSE - it's Electronics that I was concerned about being 'soft'.

Outside of touristy areas, there are a lot of people who don't speak perfect fluent English. I've studied and worked in a few places and the fluent English speakers were definitely a minority in all of them. So I think MFL are so useful, as they're something that can actually be applied to everyday life.

It's a shame a lot of people in this country don't like languages. That said, it doesn't sound like it would be the right choice for the OP's son.

I don't know what the post-reform electronics is like but DD did electronic products pre-reform (letter grades). I wouldn't have said it was 'soft', she learned valuable skills, they had to do planning and report writing and it helped a lot with getting an Arkwright scholarship. She did comp sci too. She did do an MFL because the school made them take it but it didn't seem to really seem to teach language in a useful way....maybe it's improved post reform, I don't know.

In fact the electronics gcse sparked her passion... she's now a 4th yr Cambridge engineering student with a job in electronics design lined up. Far from reducing her uni chances, electronics turned out to enhance them.

OP, digressing a bit like PPs, it is fascinating how many DCs on MN threads are bright but very weak at the mechanics of MFLs at GCSE level Bright children in other countries don’t just learn English but other languages, also often starting from secondary school and are expected to do well at them like at their other subjects, at the very least at the written component.

From what I can see, written language learning requires applying logic to acquire grammatical structure and applying repetitive effort for memory retention. Then speaking requires listening and practice to reproduce pronunciation, a willingness to experiment at least in class and to learn from mistakes.

What do bright British children lack in the above that most other nationalities don’t? How much is it due to low parental expectations or poor teaching (worse than other subject teaching).

IME I don’t think exposure to learning parrot fashion some phrases at primary school makes any difference.

What do bright British children lack in the above that most other nationalities don’t?

Tbh I think what they mostly lack is growing up in a world where the lingua Franca isn't their 'mother tongue'. Whilst undoubtedly it would be better if more of us were functional polyglots, most of us don't actually need to be.

I actually think we don’t want to be bothered. We do accept too readily that everyone else speaks English, so why learn something that takes effort?

The idea that languages are just about speaking persists too. This is often seen as a “need” to learn a language as articulated above. It’s seen as vocational. Even intelligent people do not see learning a language as learning about culture, history, arts, geography etc of countries and their people. We clearly need to do far more in this country regarding learning about other cultures. Especially as we still want to do business with them. Closed minds are simply unhelpful.

I think languages take effort to learn. Many DC and parents don’t see the value and have low expectations. The DC certainly won’t make much effort. Languages are not particularly well taught in many schools and the subject is marginalised. When schools won’t let DC take two MFL GCSEs the message is clear. We all want 3 sciences taught.

I would love to know the numbers (%) of DC who get into Cambridge and Oxford do so without a MFL GCSE. That might show whether they matter to the truly bright, or not. If a MFL gcse was required, DCs with ambition might think twice about ducking out.

Just to be clear I do think learning about culture, history, grammar, etc, is important too, but I wrote what I did above as I disagree with the general view we have in this country that 'everybody speaks English anyway'. In my experience that's not true, so there is actually an advantage to speaking languages.

I agree @raskolnikova

I would love to know the numbers (%) of DC who get into Cambridge and Oxford do so without a MFL GCSE. That might show whether they matter to the truly bright, or not.

It might tell you more about whether they mattered to various types of selective school.
I don't disagree with what you say, Percy. Some of the problem imo may be that the school system has been overly focussed on tests. If there's no exam or certificate then it's often not seen as worth doing. This leads to both vocational skills and cultural general education being neglected.

Well selective school entrants are what proportion at Oxbridge? Do we know? Additionally, why shouldn’t other bright DC have the same opportunities? Let’s level up for once!

@PresentingPercy

Well selective school entrants are what proportion at Oxbridge? Do we know? Additionally, why shouldn’t other bright DC have the same opportunities? Let’s level up for once!

DH likes overanalysing data ... his conclusion is that the proportion from selective schools is now about what you'd logically expect it to be.

I don't think there is any data re how many successful applicants have gcse MFL and hence no evidence that would show an excess relative to their school cohorts.

The Ebacc is practically dead in the water - nobody gives a toss about it. Unless he wants to study languages then don't pressure him to take them. Let him take whatever he enjoys and is good at. I say that as an MFL teacher.

I have two just gone through these years. Neither DC chose a MFL and came out with a raft of 7-9's in subjects they enjoyed. DS friend did German because he was taken in by the Ebacc spiel and his grade 5 was by far his worst result.

Ebac is besides the point but it does enshrine what a decent broad education looks like. Should have an art added too!

We should consider a broad education as vital until 16. A broad education includes a MFL. Why did the DC only get a 5? Does it matter anyway? What university are they looking at? A single 5 in a MFL won’t disqualify DC from many universities. Did they get 9 in every other subject?

I don’t have a logical mind @ErrolTheDragon
So what should I expect the proportion to be? I’ve no idea what % of selective schools we have in this country?

It would be great to know what % has an MFL and whether state schools are not facilitating their brightest DC to study for one or more.

His 5 won't affect his uni offers, but he'd rather have a fistful of 7's and above only, which he would otherwise have had.
He ended up hating German, so rather counterproductive in the end.

So yet another example from cptartapp of a DC with a disproportionately low grade in a MFL compared to their other grades.

I lean towards PresentingPercy’s view of can’t be bothered to put in the effort with parents metaphorically shrugging their shoulders.
ErrolDragon learning English as a non native language is easier due to the it’s universality. However learning English does not really help acquisition of a second MFL which, as I said, most bright DCs in other countries are expected not only to do but also to get good grades in.

Plenty of state schools insist on EBacc qualifying subjects PresentingPercy. From what I gather from friends with children at different schools it's pretty much the norm in our locality. At my children's school everyone except those who aren't felt capable of getting a 4 has to do a MFL.
As an aside, I think the EBacc is killing the arts. Many schools, including ours, have reduced GCSEs from 10 to 9 to provide extra time for Maths and English on the timetable because the new syllabi are much more onerous. So with Maths and English, 3 slots are gone, another 3 for the 3 sciences, one for a MFL and one for either history or geography that only leaves one completely free choice. The scientists at least get the option of an art or practical subject but a pupil who wants to do 2 languages or 2 humanities can't. My son was one of 7 to take GCSE music out of a year of nearly 200. Other "non core" subjects have had a similar reduction in numbers and some subjects are no longer offered due to the lack of applicants. So lots of children are not able to pick their favourite or strongest subjects. Individual interests and abilities are being sacrificed for uniformity. And if some subjects aren't being offered at KS4 or 5 anymore how long before it's no longer cost effective to employ teachers to teach only KS3 and they drop off the curriculum entirely?

DD's school is forcing students to go down the EBACC route. If you wanted to do anything different you had to have a conversation with your Head of House and had to have a really good reason why.

DD was allowed to drop MFL because she is dyslexic and has struggled so much with it for the last 3 years that there seems to be no point in continuing to flog a dead horse.

I took French and Spanish and passed O level in both, yet the only French I can remember is that we did in primary school which we learned phonetically. I can understand French if I concentrate but speaking is another matter.

Children elsewhere in the world grow up listening to American music, watching American movies and TV. Coupled with starting English a lot earlier than ours start with languages gives them a bit of a head start.

My DS is being forced to do the Ebacc. Only children who wouldn't get a 4 at GCSE can drop MFL and therefore get an extra choice of another GCSE. Some children at DS's school haven't had a single MFL at secondary school in order to give them room on the timetable for extra English and/or maths so they have obviously been pushed down the non ebacc route right from year 7.

I totally understand the lower priority of a MFL for those who struggle getting to standard in English or are dyslexic.

scarletzebra as I said in my previous posts, a headstart for English but not for the second MFL they usually have to learn.

I entirely agree that children should get a broad education. But the EBAcc doesn't enshrine it - no arts subjects and no tech subjects. The EBAcc was ok as a core in the pre-reform days when a bright kid could do 11 or 12 subjects - they could get breadth and depth on one aspect or another. The new more rigorous GCSEs don't allow for enough subjects for breadth. Maybe there should be a range of either completely unexamined options or half awards? I don't know... but one size doesn't fit all. Even if it's the case that many children benefit from doing an MFL, it really doesn't seem like the best use of options for the OPs DS.

Quite possibly not - but as usual DC and parents approve of giving up the MFL rather too easily.

Why are the sciences so over represented? At my grammar, one science was acceptable at O level - obviously not for scientists. But for the rest of us - who cared? No one! So other subjects for some DC get sidelined due to sciences taking centre stage. My DDs might have benefitted from being relieved of a science or two. No chance of course. Years ago, no one would have batted an eyelid at that. Now you probably have 4 of your 9 or 10 “choices” as Maths and Science. Add computer science and it’s half of Gcse exams taken. Add design tech and it’s even more unbalanced. We specialise way too early.

An art or tech should be compulsory (as it was for DDs). At my local Girls’ Grammar, 79% entered Ebacc. 21% ducked out. The boys’ Grammar was 74% entered and my DHs old grammar (which people fall over themselves to get into) had a mighty 47% Ebacc entry. Any school that insists these days seems quite unusual. Sadly.

One of my Dc takes a Mfl and one doesn’t. The school (selective academic independent) no longer insists on it due to the fact that they aim for top grades across the board and in the normal course of things it’s harder to get a 9 due to the number of native speakers taking the exam. DS1 has six Spanish kids in his year.

Children elsewhere in the world grow up listening to American music, watching American movies and TV.

We really don’t. Teenagers may start showing an interest in American/British culture in secondary school, but we don’t grow up listening to American music or TV. We watch local TV channels. Movies are dubbed. My mum sang us to us in her own language, not in English.

And like the PP said, there’s still another language on top of English which we only start in Y7 and by Y12 are expected to have the same level in, as English which we start at age 6. An A student is expected to get As in all the subjects, including languages. There isn’t a disparity in grades between maths/science/history and MFLs.

The most popular clubs after sports and music are what we call ‘English academy’ or ‘French academy’ and so on. A vast number of children attend MFL extra-curriculars in the afternoons, as improving the knowledge of English and subsequent languages outside of school is seen as highly desirable. There is a culture of giving value to foreign language learning.

This is from parents who grew up under a dictatorship which saw even local co-official languages banned. They didn’t do anything except the nationwide official language at school, most don’t speak any English apart from hello and thank you.