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Secondary education

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No offer at 11+ can you still get in at 13+

36 replies

Yesday · 27/03/2021 12:25

My son didn’t get any offers at 11+ to London day schools. He is at a state school at the top of his class and has high CAT scores but unfortunately due to personal circumstances at time of exams he didn’t perform his best. We are at a state school so didn’t have the head’s backing or a glowing transfer test report. Friends with children at local prep school reported that this covid year the heads relationship with senior schools and the transfer report was crucial and there prep schools had got unprecedented results to London schools which in past years was not as high because everyone had to do round 2 paper exams. I have researched the 13+, I realise now the application is done at the same time as the 11+ and I have missed the majority of deadlines. Our local state school offer is also not good. I am considering putting son into a Pre prep to 13. I have read old comments on posts of mum’s in same situation but their child was at a prep school that goes to 13. The child got a place at 13+ to the same schools even though they didn’t get in at 11+ with the heads help. Anyone here willing to share experience of not getting 11+ but gaining a place at 13+ from a Pre prep. Which schools they gained entry and from what prep school. Also would love to hear experience of common entrance exams, how hard, how much homework, revision materials. Trying to do as much research as possible to find out best options available for year 7. Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
orchidsonabudget · 30/03/2021 13:23

If you are looking at boarding maybe look a bit further out too?

WombatChocolate · 30/03/2021 13:41

The reality is that as you move out of LOndon, schools generally have less applications per place. Some actually struggle to fill and although they say they are selective and have an entrance exam, they take the vast majority who apply. This won’t be the case for the few very top schools but will be for many, especially boarding schools which are unaffordable to so many more people.

Knowing if you want boarding for senior is pretty important for deciding your next steps. It is very much a case of working backwards from where you want to go, to where will get the kids in there.

MaisieSunshine · 30/03/2021 22:56

We live in Herts and as others have mentioned, the majority of transfers for boys from preps are still at 13+. Some secondaries did an early entrance process at the same time as 11+ but still have some places for the more conventional 13+ timeline, so you can apply later as well.

Maybe look at weekly boarding to a prep outside of London to see how you get on with it? Or even a couple of nights a week flexi boarding if you can find a school with a longer commute and a bus

By the way a pre-prep covers nursery-year 2 only and usually feeds into a prep. Prep used to be 7-13 but many are all in one from nursery to 13 now. Anyway, it is a prep you need for year 7, not a pre-prep.

We recently had to repeat the whole entrance process as the school my son had a Yr9 place at announced closure. All schools we approached were welcoming and helpful and we were able to get him assessed and had multiple new offers within a fortnight. Our prep helped us hugely with this also, and that is their job - to help secure a good and the right place for your child.

From West London you have lots of options north and south, just maybe need to widen the net a bit out of London.

Stopsnowing · 31/03/2021 21:47

I fear this is a silly question but what is the point of offering at 13 plus place in year six? Anything could happen academically to the child?

WombatChocolate · 01/04/2021 08:53

The point is mostly that schools would like to have certainty about their intakes. People testing in yr6 enter at yr7 or defer until yr9. They pay a hefty deposit to hold their place. The school then can plan ahead having a good idea of its numbers.

Lots of 13+ schools were starting to find some of their candidates switched to 11+ at other schools or because Common Entrance exams at 13 were so late, there was no certainty about who was coming until late in the day. It was mostly driven by schools, but actually many parents like to know too, especially with some areas becoming more competitive. Those in Yr8 Prep schools without places started to feel anxious when they didn’t know where their children were going,especially as lots of schools started filling more places from 11+.

Regarding massive changes happening academically, well there is a risk, but the aptitude tests which schools use (often similar to CAT or Midyis tests that lots of secondaries use on entry to assess intelligence) are pretty accurate at measuring ability. Most children don’t vastly change over that period. Work ethic might do, but ability won’t really.

SpLDLSA · 04/04/2021 08:59

13+ mum here .... excellent advice above, so hopefully the following might help. We are in the independent sector and still get confused, so be assured you are not the only one.

Lingo:
Pre-prep is usually referred to infant school. Up to year Y2. A Pre-prep to prep school covers infant and junior

Prep school - Form 1 to Form 4 usually, which are Y3 to Y6, with some of them going up to Lower and Upper 6 which are Y7 and Y8 each.

ISEB is (from what we are understanding) a system/test that was hugely used this year as a sieving type of method. As the child does the test, the test in the computer starts getting harder or remains within the initial level as it started, depending on the child's ability. The results allows the schools to chose their candidates in a more straight forward way for them.

CATS results for the schools you mentioned, are, I believe, around 132 minimal. Prep schools have a good number of children with these and higher results. For example, in our DC's class, a good number scored 135 to 141 (I will relate this a bit further).

"The Process":

The system just changed a few years ago and I think this is why we are still a bit confused. This is also the reason why you apply at this stage of 11+, even if you are going for a 13+ placement in 2 years' time as we did. But there is hope! Some schools, such as Kingston Grammar has a small number of spaces reserved for 13+ (I believe they have 10). There is always movement and you might find a placement in a less selective school, in Y7, 8 or an offer for Y9.

So, the potential schools either used ISEB, followed by an interview and in some cases a math and English exam within it. Some did the ISEB, interview and soon the students will be seating their entrance exams, a favourite one following this pattern is Winchester, they are going to seat their exams in May, I believe.

Other schools had their own entrance exams, followed by an interview and then a placement offer or a conditional placement offer in view of your child having to seat common entrance exams (again!) in Y8. We applied to 2 schools, one gave us an unconditional offer, the other a conditional, all depends on the school.

After the exams and interviews, then the process either follows more exams, or an offer, waiting list or a decline letter, but you should always hear back from the schools you applied.

In the middle of all these, if your child did well in the exams, they ask for your child's current school to send or they look at the already sent reference letter, this has a lot of weight in them offering you a placement or not, but but but if you child didn't do well in the exams and/or interview, no Head can get your child in by reference alone. This is where the CATS play a role! In that reference letter, the schools send the CATS (if they did them) results as well as part of this letter. With results over 130, they will emphasis these as they will show any school an added potential on top of their results.

13+ entrance. During our 2 years, the school we chose (as it was a conditional placement), will then be asking for a further reference each year to assure that the child is in the same school they applied with, and continues with good progress. Again, this letter will not get your child in the school, but it can get your child out of the school before they even begun! If the 13+ school offers an unconditional placement, then that was it, a reference letter each year and all done and dusted. So no Head can get your child in a school by recommendation alone, unless they are friends or relatives among themselves, which is possible, otherwise the mere commoners like us, have to follow the process.

In the 13+ exams you will do the core subjects, English, Maths and Science plus 2 or 3 other options, most common options will be a language and a humanity subject. The minimal pass is 55% for them to continue or offer you a placement.

Your ("possible") options:

You mentioned that your child was not given any offers, but you don't mention if he is in a waiting list or it was a rejection letter. If it was a rejection letter, before you waste your time and money, call each school and find out if they will give him another chance in Y8 to seat the exams again, you might find out that some of these schools do, some don't, but this will help you to know where you stand or if you need to move on with schools.

If you are in the waiting list, call and see what the chances are. Keep in mind that the 2009/2010 generation is an overpopulated generation due to the baby boom in 2009. The uptake of private schools has grown for secondary placements after these lockdowns, so be as realistic as possible of the chances that your son might have in moving up the list. Bottom line, he might still be up for a chance if he is in a waiting list.

Going down the prep school route:

The advantage you will have is that there is room in most schools who are running Y7 and Y8, as other have mentioned, due to the exodus at 11+. Those that might get you in the schools you mentioned, most likely will have their own entrance exam that your child will have to take. This will also give you an opportunity to see if you have a chance to make it in any of those schools.

My only advise here is that you are upfront with the Head and talk about your aspirations for your child. They will be a good gauge depending on the school and on their exams, if you child actually has a chance to make it in or not. But they will also give you other options that you might not be aware of.

Please note that a lot of prep school children whose parents had the schools you mentioned in mind, have also being tutored (not all of them), but a good number have. The competition in London and the SW is criminal and throat cutting for selective schools and even the mild or no so selective ones!

A tutor could also be a good port of call, but they are hard to find in London, but never say never.

Please bear in mind that a prep school or a tutor does not warranties the placement, it opens up the possibility and gives your child an extra tool to have a better chance, but is not 100% proof. Some prep school children didn't get the school they wanted at all.

Your child:

Before going on this issue, you mentioned that there were particular circumstances that affected his performance. Plain speaking, parents divorcing, death or bad disease affecting an immediate family member or a bad accident are circumstances that would get your child an opportunity in caring pastoral schools such as Reeds in Surrey, worth checking them. These have to be extreme circumstances of course.

You know your child best and you will know what would suit him best. We have chosen, despite the advise of the Head, a non selective or how they call themselves a mildly selective school as although he has high CATs, he also performs extremely well in maths, apparently he is KCS candidate with your eyes closed, whatever that is! But he needs a nurturing and less demanding placement. We needed a school where he as going to have more an almost 1-2-1 rather than being one more of a lot of brilliant and clever children.

I hope this has helped!

lamplightnow · 04/04/2021 23:15

London is a city of movement!
Occasional places do seem to come up alot.
Definitely set your sights a bit lower and contact schools such as Kew House, St.Benedicts, St.James, Radnor House, Harrodian ,Halliford etc.
I would be surprised if one of those didn't offer a place before September.

MGMidget · 07/04/2021 13:49

For schools that require a minimum mark at Common Entrance, it is worth knowing that the minimum mark can be high. 65 % or 70% is quite common and that can apply to every paper, not an overall average. That said, most of the aspirational schools are not using common entrance exam marks for selection purposes now, only for setting purposes after passing their pre-test.

Stircrazyschoolmum · 07/04/2021 17:29

@Yesday I’m sorry you find yourself in this position. From experience it seems boys places are much harder than girls to come by.

Have you looked at Maida Vale school? (Sister of Kew) It’s very new so it’s less well known and as such less over subscribed. It might have a place come available for Sept?

Another idea is Thomas’s Battersea who are starting secondary this September which will be a blend of external applicants and its own cohort.

Ibstock place might have late places coming available as parents make final decisions before first terms fees are due. Not sure what journey would be like...

I think you have to grab the bull by the horns and ring round some admissions departments. Explain circumstances and see what they suggest? Occasional places frequently come up in the first term of year 7.

Good luck! x

somewhereoverthe · 09/04/2021 06:46

We were told recently that St James's Ashford is full for y7 in September, don't know about y9 though. Halliford has apparently had record applications this year due to new facilities or something and many dc were disappointed. It does sound like a very tricky year to be going through the process.

BeaglesAbout · 11/06/2021 13:05

If your child is able, Hampton admit at 13+ although their main intake is at 11+ (they also assess at 10+).
But - as with all schools - if he's not as able as the intake (no matter how bright you think he is) then he's not going to be happy at that school.

The learning pace at Kings or St Pauls or Hampton is ferociously quick and it's not for everyone.

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