Appeals & Waiting Lists Southwark

[GingeAndTonic]

Has anyone been on the Kingsdale waiting list? Their initial admissions are based on a lottery system, how does it work, and has anyone far down the list been offered a place from their waiting list?

My son’s been offered his 5th preference, a school 45 minutes away by bus. it’s a huge all-through school, and I didn’t think we’d be offered it as it’s much further than the others on our list. I hope it will be fine, but he’s quite disappointed and nervous as no one he knows will be going, and since his father was in hospital with Covid, he’s become more anxious.

He’s 306 in band 1 on the Kingsdale waiting lost, so I’m thinking he probably has no chance. He was particularly keen because of the maths provision (you have to be offered a place first, unlike other scholarships at the school) but I’m guessing loads of people will appeal, so I’m feeling quite dispirited.

He is 219th at his second preference, and 69th at his third. We are also appealing to the third preference. Both schools offer good maths provision, and are closer than we were offered, but really, has anyone won an appeal? Or been really far down the waiting list, only to be offered a place?

Thanks. Sorry it’s such a long op.

Sorry no advice but thinking of you - we are on waiting lists too but can’t find our position til Tuesday.

If the allocations are a lottery are the waiting list places done by lottery too? If so could mean low position doesn’t matter? 🤞🏻

I’ve been looking at Kingsdale’s admissions policy. It says that when a child is added to the waiting list, it will be ranked again “in line with the published oversubscription criteria”. As I read it, that means that when more children join the waiting list - as they no doubt are at the moment - the random list will be redrawn. The scholarship waiting list is separate (it says) and held in performance order.

When we’ve discussed random allocation waiting lists before (as best I can remember) @prh47bridge has suggested the waiting list should (like the original allocations) be treated like a pool out of which children are taken at random when there’s a place to be filled. That feels right to me, but I can’t find anything in the schools admissions code to give a direction.

To win an appeal, you need to present evidence that the prejudice (disadvantage) to your child outweighs the prejudice to the school in having to admit an additional pupil.

Hi. No, I don’t think they do another draw each time. I’ve heard of people who didn’t even have the school as their first preference who are above him. It’s really an awful situation. He wanted to go there more than anything, and I can do nothing to help.

Are you waiting for Kingsdale or another? I got his current place on the waiting lists from the LEA. It makes no sense that we live less than a kilometre from his third preference and yet we don’t live close enough, so he’s placed at a school almost 4km away.

How is 4km a 45 minute bus ride, you could walk it quicker!

@PanelChair - It's para 1.35 of the Admissions Code, "a fresh round of random allocation must be used each time a child is to be offered a place from a waiting list".

No we are not on that one. Our waiting lists close on Monday then positions are allocated in order of admissions criteria. It does seem a very strange system to do it all randomly.

I hope you get a school you want.

@prh47bridge - Ah. I searched but somehow missed it. Mea culpa!

Where you place a school in your preferences has no bearing on whether you get a place or where you are on a waiting list. It’s significance is in deciding which place you will be offered if you qualify for more than one - you will be offered whichever was higher on your preference list.

@ImpatientAnn

No we are not on that one. Our waiting lists close on Monday then positions are allocated in order of admissions criteria. It does seem a very strange system to do it all randomly.

I hope you get a school you want.

The idea is that random allocation stops parents getting their children into popular schools by buying properties nearby, thereby driving up house prices in the area. The downside is that it makes the system less predictable, so it is harder to tell whether your child is likely to get a place at the school. For this reason, there is a ban on LAs using it as the principal oversubscription criteria for schools where they are the admission authority, but VA schools and academies can use random allocation if they wish.

@LIZS

How is 4km a 45 minute bus ride, you could walk it quicker!

As the crow flies, which is how it is measured; by foot it's around 5km, or a 1 hour walk along many busy roads in central London.

The lottery system was the only chance we had of getting into that school. I guess I just wanted to hear there was hope. It's been a rotten year, and I think the fact that the only school that allowed parents to physically visit was the first preference.

Also, I hoped if someone had won an appeal, others might see it and feel hope - I can't be the only one in this position

We are 280 odd on kingsdale list in band 2. Def not holding out. I think 200s or 300s for any school the chances are very low. We are in the 100s for 2 schools, 1 for 1 school and 20 odd for another school. Our 6th choice i have no idea of our position. I hope Southwark update their list fairly quickly after tomorrow. Hopefully during the week

Yes but (as above), if you’re on any waiting list which is (in effect) a random pool, then you have the same chance of getting a waiting list place if you’re number 1 or number 199 because (if they’re complying with the code) it’s a random draw.

Re Kingsdale, do late applicants get a chance to take a banding test when they apply? If not, they just join the 'non banded pot' which is never going to get dipped into at current rates of oversubscription. Therefore the banded pots are fixed from the first draw and no-one new can enter which why the school is able to give you a wait list position and why they never have to redraw the pot????

@BettySundaes Yes, in-year applicants have to take the banding test.

When I say late applicants I mean those who apply after the October deadline but before Yr7 in-take the following September - they wouldn't be considered "in-year" would they?

@BettySundaes

When I say late applicants I mean those who apply after the October deadline but before Yr7 in-take the following September - they wouldn't be considered "in-year" would they?

Ah I see - no, but they are still asked to take the test.

Well, then I am none the wiser!!!

The waiting list is in effect divided into sub-lists - one for each band. So to get onto the waiting list, if they didn't take the test at the usual time, the child needs to take the banding test. If they don't, they go onto the very bottom of the waiting list, with any other children who haven't taken the test and can't be slotted into any of the other sub-lists. They will almost certainly never get a place, because as a place becomes available in any band, it'll be filled by a child from the relevant sub-list. (And in the case of Kingsdale, there's a separate waiting list for the scholarships). Does that help?

What is the banding? Is it designed to make the school truly comprehensive?

That's clear but then it doesn't explain how people get a wait list number as surely its just meaningless as my number could go up and down randomly each time someone new joined my band. Yet it appears this doesn't happen and people only move in an upward direction.

The waiting list number should be essentially irrelevant, and tbh I suspect the only reason to give it out is to make a point about how many people are on the list and thus your chances!

Interestingly, the Office of the School Adjudicator investigated the school as a result of a complaint in 2017 and concluded that the school was fully compliant with paras 1.34 and 1.35 of the code, suggesting they had no concerns that the random allocation wasn't carried out properly.

Yes, some schools (most near me) use banding to achieve a balanced intake.

Betty - I tend to agree with you. In a waiting list that uses random allocation, then (as mentioned earlier) they should use another random draw to fill any places from the waiting list, so in that sense it makes no difference if you're number 1 or number 199 on the list.

But in waiting lists that don't use random allocation, the list is held in the same order as the oversubscription criteria. That means that any late applicants will be added to the list according to where they fit within the oversubscription criteria, not by the date they applied. They may therefore go higher in the list and everyone below them will shift down a place. Plenty of people on threads here over the years have mentioned this happening to them.

Was a bit slow off the mark and PatriciaHolm said it first!

We wanted Charter or Kingsdale and was offered Harris Academy Peckham, two buses away! Also this school has very poor results. We went on the waiting list for Charter and Kingsdale, and also put DDs name down at Harris Academy East Dulwich and Sydenham School. DD was also on the list for Charter East Dulwich but because at that time it was in Camberwell whilst the new school was being built we lost out there. A mere technicality. (The school is now a 15 min walk from where we live). Harris ED initially offered us a place but DD took a Sydenham place (after some of the girls went private) because two of her primary mates were going there. She's in Y9 and very happy, doing well.

Kingsdale always gets 1000s of applications and I think only applying for a scholarship raises the chance of an offer.

@ArtemisiaGentle
It's such a familiar experience. Harris ED Boys is our closest school, but my son was vehement he didn't want to go to a boys' school. Charter ED is the next closest, but you have to live within 750 meters to have the chance of a place. It's crazy, isn't it. The school only opened three years ago, and there's still a need for another school!

@ImpatientAnn
Is this an updated placing? I wrote to the LEA to find out my son's initial place on the various waiting lists on the 2nd.
I hope you get a good result.

No - where we are the waiting lists are opt in and people have until 15th to do so. It then closes and we can find out our place.

Initial offers have to be accepted by 29th then they start offering places from the waiting list in April.

Thank you. 🤞🏻