Grammar, or walk to local comp?

[newyorkbreakfast]

DS8 is currently in Y4. Hardworking, conscientious, independent. There's a lot of local 'pressure' to get kids tutored to give them access to the one and only state grammar in the area which would be a fiddly bus/train ride away. The local comp is Ofsted 'Good', having recently risen from RI. It should be better but the wealthier in the neighbourhood send their kids to private school so that affects the intake of the state school, and the perception of it is sadly quite negative still, despite its apparent improvement. Should I get her a tutor and give her a shot at the 11+? She's a good student but not exceptional at Maths. I don't know if the entrance exam requires them to be academically brilliant at everything or does it take anything else into account such as character, creativity etc? My gut feeling is to send her to the comp and if she needs tutoring for GCSE, I will pay for that as and when it's needed and she could hopefully do well. I like the fact she could walk by herself and would form friends locally. However, other parent friends think I'd be silly not to give her a chance at the 11+. That would mean finding a tutor now and having her study at weekends. It's very competitive in the area as it's the only state grammar (no fees) so it's very difficult to get in. If she didn't get in, then she'd be going to the local comp as that's the only catchment school. What are your thoughts? Thanks

If it was me I would compare the comp and the grammar in terms of GCSE and A levels. I would find out some info from parents who have had children who attend both.

I would not start with a tutor until last term of year 4 or first term of year 5.

Focus on vocab, reading and also try see where she is at maths and try help out at home.

The 11 plus prep won't actually hurt is she ends up in a comp.

So if it was me I would aim for grammar but still be really positive about the comp, and say you are just going to do this process to try learn more and to give you DC options and help the transition to secondary anyway.

Does that help?

Is she considered “top table”? How many go from her school? Is she of similar ability to those who have gone before? You seem to have some doubts about maths.

I’m not a fan of tutoring. My DC got to do other things at the weekend. You don’t sound as if you totally dislike the comp. Only
You really know whether DD will enjoy and respond to tutoring. There are mixed results where I live - and I’m in a grammar county with 13 of them!

I would try and work out if she is one of the brightest and be honest about likely successors. My DC were not tutored for GCSEs. You do perhaps need to keep an eye on the comp and see if you like it. Would she go with friends? I also don’t see how other people can judge how bright your DD is. You seem unsure and it’s only her trencher who knows! Is she always exceeding?

Character and creativity don’t come into it. DC are not interviewed at state schools and how would they judge creativity? It’s down to academics alone.

Sorry for typos. It’s late.

What is her realistic chance of getting into the grammar? Both in terms of being able to pass and then getting in on distance. How far/fiddly in the bus journey.

I'm not a fan of selective education and even less a fan of complicated journeys to get to school (I did one myself as a child). So unless she's pretty much a shoe in for a place and the journey isn't as bad as you suggest, I would just send her to your comp. It's really good that you're seeing beyond the negative press - my DC spent years in a school that local gossip was universally negative about - the school was actually perfectly fine and none of the whispered rumours were true.

You don't need to tutor intensively. You can just start in Y5 and do an hour a week or thereabouts. We only started in the summer of Y5, then again DD1 is on the waiting list rather than a shoo-in, so maybe we should have started earlier.
Grammar schools don't judge on character as a PP said, but some do have an element of creativity. The one my DD tried does a Maths, Verbal Reasoning and English paper. The English is split into reading comprehension and creative writing, so there is an element of creativity. But your English paper only gets marked if you score highly on the other two papers.

It is tricky. My DD2 is also in Y4 and I'm not sure if she'll take the grammar exam or not. Her Maths is definitely not as strong as her older sister's although she's probably the strongest reader in her class. If we do go down the grammar route, we will probably start tutoring in January of Y5. We do have good local options though.

By “creative“ I assumed Arts or drama. Creative writing is academic if they look at spelling and grammar as well as content.

I think grammar schools are right for most of the DC that go to them but the over coaching and angst parents feel has effects on some children which is not healthy.

Look at the comp results. Do they have a strong cohort of high achievers on the government web site. Has the school mostly been good in its lifetime? Was the RI a blip or does it yo-yo in and out of RI? Often the history of inspections paints a different picture from the current one. In both directions! What is progress 8 like? Could she get good results there or do few dc get them? Look deeply into the government stats and then if it looks good and dc make progress, I might save my money!

Drill down into the local comp stats and look at how each attainment level does, saying that 75% come out with 5 GCSEs 9-4 isn't a clear picture. There is a school locally to us that focuses on getting children achieving grade 3 up to grade 4 but not pushing grade 6 any higher because the front page stats are based on the number of students who achieve the GCSEs not the grades of those GCSEs. Does that make sense?

So www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/

Bring up the school and look at "results by pupil characteristics" and
"prior attainment" to see how well the school deals with the usual cohort.

It may help get a clearer picture of the school.

Where will she be happy. Not get the best results, but have the happiest life. What is a happy life for her? Is it being able to potter off to school by walking, have lots of local friends, and not have pressure to live up to results needed by a school that rises or falls on its results - if so you have your answer. Mental health for teen girls is a serious issue at the moment, so I would start with working out where her mental health would be best and work backwards. If the comp doesn't get great results save the tutoring for years 10&11 rather than 11plus?

Thank you all for your advice on data analysis. The comp has a new head and is improving. They have historically always had a tricky intake due, in part, to the fact that many wealthy high achievers are sent to the local private schools instead so the healthy mix of high/low attainment and income background isn't there. It's not quite as dramatic as the likes of Notting Hill where you have extreme wealth and poverty side by side and the two never shall meet but you get the idea. As more 'normal' people send their kids there it will get better - by normal, I mesn people with average income who can't or choose not to afford private. So I'm not sure the data will look good right now though it's changing.

@Turth I think you are absolutely right: her friends are so important to her, as is pottering about, not too much pressure, keeping on top of things. The mental health issue with teens and stress is really tragic. And so unnecessary. What about all the hot-housing of kids in Korea? Or am I naive and ignoring the fact that they are all competing globally these days?

I think there are lots of schools that can get 60% and above with 4-9 results. However, this can mask that lots of dc gegt 4-7 with few at 8 or 9. so do drill down on progress and results for each category of child, high, middle and low attainers. Are the high attaining dc doing well enough? This is often the problem at some schools that go into RI.

No, they are not all competing globally. Plenty of jobs are here for our dc without external competition. Yes, possibly at a high level of economics, medicine and lecturing you might compete but generally no.

Thankfully we are not in Korea. My DDs always had lots of hobbies and their education was very broad. That is far better than hot housing. They were always happy at school and not stressed despite being at selective schools. Grammars are right for the right DC. Plenty of dc are happy in them and thrive. If you are not sure, then go to the comp.

Also look at what subjects are offered at the comp compared with the grammar. Many comps don't, eg. do further Maths, some only offer one MFL at GCSE level. Some only do combined science instead of separate sciences, etc. That may or may not be important for your DS.

Give her the chance. You can always decide closer to the time on the actual school.

I joined a grammar school at 6th form after being at a comp (it was out of area and I don’t think my parents knew it existed when I was 11). Don’t underestimate the difference it can make.

OP: the post about comps not being judged in their results is wrong. Ofsted do look at this and progress. Any school that takes their eye off the ball and allows DC to coast will be RI. So a good school will ensure happy DC and ones that progress and achieve well. In the grammars near me, both is possible. In many schools you can have both. RI schools that have become good might now be very hot on academics!

I don’t think it can hurt to try if the journey is just about do-able - it’s not a do or die situation, it sounds like you’d be reasonably happy with the comp. Have you figured out how long the journey to the grammar would take? I’ve a DD whose journey in/back takes about an hour each way. With daily homework/clubs on top it can make for a long day - will she be ok with that?

I think I’d start off by looking at the Admissions criteria of the grammar - are they looking just for a pass at 11+ or will DD need to achieve above a certain high/very high score? How many applications do they generally receive? Perhaps visit the 11+forum site and ask what pass scores girls generally get in on. You say she’s weaker at Maths so if she’s going to need a high score to get in, it’s heavily over subscribed and you envision she’ll need a lot of tutoring over the next 2 years, I think I’d just leave it! I’m not sure what happens with London Grammars but here in Kent no interviews take place so character etc isn’t taken into consideration.

I’d agree that you should look at how the high attainers are performing at the State Secondary as well as overall performance. I’d also ask if they stream (not all do), what for (subjects) and whether it’s based on SATS. A bright child in top streams should be well challenged basically.

Are there any other potential schools you could look at or is it just down to these two? If she has a talent in a certain area it might be worth looking at high performing schools that you aren’t in catchment for that are just about do-able journey wise that have arts/music/sports places? We did this with DD2.

Thank you all. Lots to think about. I'm erring towards the comp as I think the rest is complicated unless your child really is top- tier genius.
The commute would be about an hour each way and not just one bus!

I wasn’t an hour away from school and mine boarded!

That seems like a long commute and if they want after school clubs it makes the day very long. Try and stay local I think.

If she was really keen on the grammar OP then I think an hour is just about ok. My DD was very keen on the school she goes too (still mostly is!) but honestly it does make a bloody long day for them. It does also involve you getting up at the crack of dawn to chivvy them out of the door which is no joy either. Worth it if you & they are sold on the benefits of the school and can cope with the hours but if you’re in doubt, dodge it! Two buses will be a nightmare too, the potential for missing connections are pretty high.

Plenty of kids spend an hour+ on the bus to my comp. We aren't in a grammar school area though.

I think in your shoes I'd have my child sit the 11+. If they pass you have options, and it doesn't HAVE to be a hothouse tutoring situation. You have nothing to lose if you position it with your DC as no big deal.

My DC are at a Grammar but if they had to travel an hour each way to get there and/or would potentially feel out of their depth while there (not saying your DD would - but from your description you're not sure a Grammar school is right for her), I wouldn't have put them through the tests. Then again, if she really wants to do the prep, that can be a positive thing in itself. You don't need to get a tutor though, especially if they are motivated.