Talk to me about CAT scores and private schools

[thesunday]

Hello!

Please enlighten me on CAT scores, especially for selective London schools. Alright, the super-selectives go for a CAT of 135+, makes sense.

Now our DS has a CAT of 115-119 and we're wondering whether a school with an average pupil CAT of 125 is right for them. DS tried this school for the 11+ (and didn't get in) and now it has been suggested by our headmaster to apply again for the 13+. The administration officer also said why not try again as DS 'fits the profile'.

I'm full of questions.

• Our DC has a verbal CAT of 108, which might be too low altogether to even be able to pass a private secondary exam in London?

• Can one improve on verbal CAT score (through VR, reading, etc)?

• Is there a big difference between CAT 119 and 125 and do DS's come into their own?

And please excuse that I sound like a calculator (I genuinely ask on here because I want to do what's best for my child, and will not try to mould him into something he's not. On the other hand 10/11 years is very young and I don't want to pass on any opportunities that he is too young to understand)

Headmaster says go for the 13+ again, DH thinks CAT 119/120 is state secondary level and that's where DC is meant to be (even though he'd be delighted for DC to go to that private school).

And I'm still debating all this so please do let me know any comments, feedback, experiences. I'd be very very grateful.

I guess the logic is on a good day he could get in, but with a typical or less good day he may not. What is the 13+ process - pretest,entrance exam or CE? It could be an aspirational choice but do have a back up. Bear in mind the prep head wants to fill year 7/8 so has an interest in keeping your dc longer. Would your dc really benefit from the extras offered at a private school, do they want to try again?

Cats are always worked out so that the average is 100, so if your son is scoring 119-120 then he is above average. In September london that would get him entry to a top middling school and is a good score. The head will want him to stay until 13 so bear that in mind. If you tried at 11+ and didn’t get up do you have another option?
For what it’s worth, I have 2 friends who ready in year 8 and got in for year 9

119-120 is top 10% nationally so well above average and students with that ability profile are in many selective London schools. Has that score been achieved via lots of NVR and VR practice or is it close to his untrained ability?

125 is top 5% nationally for comparison. Very few if any schools only have pupils in only the top 5%, even in selective London schools.

It depends on your son's character but if he wouldn't mind being at the bottom of a very academic school then great. If he would benefit from being top or middle in a less selective school then go for that.

However, with that ability profile, if he works hard, he should have various options.

What School were you targeting OP? After our experience this year,
most London day schools will have students with average CATS 125+ as a minimum. Improvements can be achieved with familarisation or tutoring - think 5pts - maybe more - depends on the child/ subject..,

Here’s a rough idea of the CAT scores for a range of schools. I’ve included some girls’ schools to give you an idea where the boys’ schools fit.

St. Paul’s Girls’ 130+ G
Wycombe Abbey 130+ G
St Paul’s 130+ B
Winchester 125+ B
Eton 125+ B
King’s Wimbledon 125+ B (G in VIth)
City of London Boys 125+ B
Latymer Upper120+ M
Dulwich 120+ B
Harrodian 115+ M
Emanuel 115+ M

Remember a bright boy will do as well at Dulwich as he will at St Paul’s. The difference is St Paul’s take the top 2-3% and Dulwich take a wider top 15%.

@Globaliser I strongly concur with this. My son's Prep school shared details of the average CAT scores that boys who had been made offers had achieved.

Westminster 132
St Paul's 131
CLS 127
Habs 125
UCS 125
MTS 125
Highgate 124 (I think this one is pushing upwards at the mo)
Mill Hill 118

Your Prep Head should give you a realistic indication of what's possible which may be a selective school but not a super selective one - though remember there will likely still be children achieving top grades at any school and best not to push a child into a ferociously academic environment if they will struggle to keep up.

@LondonMummer that's really good information. Did the school indicate any sort of range, e.g., very few below X have ever received an offer from this school?

@user149799568 no unfortunately not, and it may not even have been an average just "these are the kind of CAT scores achieved by pupils who have been made offers in the past". Interested to hear anyone whose kids got into these schools can share their CAT scores

@LondonMummer fwiw, the Westminster score is almost exactly what their former head told parents the average was several years ago.

[quote user149799568]@LondonMummer fwiw, the Westminster score is almost exactly what their former head told parents the average was several years ago.[/quote]
That's really good to know. Obviously CATs mostly indicate potential and ultimately it comes down to how they perform in the exam with regard to syllabus based questions but I'd say it's been a fairly robust indicator for my elder son and hoping it will be for my younger who is about to go through the 11+ journey

Do people expect the MiDYis tests that senior schools do on Yr 7 entry to deliver the same results as CATs? Some senior schools also take CATs, but more use MIDYIS these days.

I wonder if when they compare the Prep school CAT scores, to ISEB entry exams which are also reasoning tests, to some of the other adaptive reasoning tests independent schools buy and use as reasoning tests (from CEM or GL), to MIDYIS, if they are broadly delivering the same result or within the same range?

Senior schools usually test within the first half term, I guess because not all entrants have done CAT tests at their previous school. If they use adaptive reasoning tests as part of their entrance test info, they have that for all candidates, but often they have been prepped. When they do Senior School reasoning tests in Sept/Oct it is often unannounced and they have not prepared for them. Would be interesting to know how much they differ.

These are approximate scores, designed to show roughly where each school fits, not a minimum, so for example your DC could get a place at St Paul’s Girls’ with an average CAT score of less than 130.

Also interested in this, although our prep head has indicated lower for some of these schools - 120+

Also bear in mind that individual CAT scores are accurate with a range of +/- 6 IIRC, so there could be a considerable variation in the scores of pupils with the same ability.

I have to smile at the idea that state school is a better fit if you're not as bright!

CAT are standardised scores, 68% of the population will score between 85 and 115. So your dc score is slightly above the average range.

I'd caution reading too much into them, they are 95 % accurate within a certain range, but that means 1 in 20 scores are out. The only represent ability in the test in that moment and should always be considered alongside other information about a child. I'm really not convinced they could tell you what school to send your child to.

My daughters northern comprehensive state school is average. She had a CAT score of 131 in Year 9 and was 6th in her year for CAT scores (year group of 240). She got AstarAstarA at A Level if you want to know what that translates to in A Level terms. I would expect a comprehensive to follow the normal pattern of CAT scores like it did.

Thank you so much for the replies, they're appreciated and please keep them coming.

And please excuse, I realise I've been ignorant.

Also please don’t choose a school on CAT scores. Choose where he will be happiest and best in the long run. That takes into account affording family holidays, putting aside money for his house deposit, the hours spent in a car/bus each day when he could be relaxing/studying, mates nearby he can go round to. Some of the pupils with higher scores than my Dd didn’t do well because of family problems. Or anxiety/pressure. A lot of pupils at both the private school and comprehensive have mental health problems often with drug use.

DH thinks CAT 119/120 is state secondary level and that's where DC is meant to be

What a bizarre perspective from your DH! What on earth does he mean by "state secondary level"?

FWIW, my dd's CAT scores have consistently been in the range that, according to this thread, would have comfortably secured her a place at a super-selective private school. We did consider the independent sector but concluded it really wasn't worth it in our situation. DD is positively thriving at her state comprehensive, because frankly, she is the kind of child who will do well wherever she goes.

I'd have thought that a slightly above average but not outstanding dc like your DS would be exactly the kind of child who would benefit most from what a private school has to offer. Far more than the kind of kid who would excel academically and socially in any environment!

There seems to be some confusion here. The scores I gave are for the CAT4 Digital Test, based on Y4-Y8. These test verbal, non-verbal, quantitative and spatial reasoning. They are a predictor of performance in exams, which is why they are helpful to prep school heads advising on which schools to apply for. They are not the basis on which an application is judged. Performance in music, sport or drama will be important as well. They help to guide the parent and the head to apply to an appropriate school. They might have more importance if schools abandon their entrance exams permanently. The scores given to each DC's parent are Standardised Age Scores. These are based on each child’s raw score in each test which is then adjusted for their age and placed on a scale that makes a comparison with a nationally representative sample of pupils of the same age across the UK. The mean score on each test is 100 for the national sample. The mean score for independent schools is approximately 110. The maximum score possible is 141 on each test and for the mean SAS.

The scores I have given are the approximate scores that DC's entering those schools have achieved. A higher score for the school does not necessarily translate into higher A level results for an individual child. A child scoring 130+ might be better suited to a school where the children joining the school average 120+. On the other hand, there is little point applying to a school where the children joining the school average 130+, if your DC is well below that figure.

@LondonMummer @Globaliser
are those scores average or minimum for each category ?
do you have any scores for GDST schools by any chance ?

Averages.

NHEHS 115
SCHS 115
FH(SS) 120
PHS 120
WHS 120
G&L 125

Hi@thesunday

CAT scores can move through practice - but the 13+ is far more well rounded, so I think this will be less of an issue for you.

I think the main issue you will face is that the 13+ now is usually offered through the PreTest - that takes place at the same time as the 11+. As you have missed this - you need to check if you can still apply for the 13+ or whether it will be an occasional place. If occasional place you will need a back up - as this is not guaranteed.

Good luck !

Hi all, thank you for all your input so far, very interesting and helpful!

Our son is in year 3 and took his first CAT assessments in September 2020 and all of his scores fall in the average range. We have since found out he is likely dyslexic. I wondered how accessible the CAT assessment is for a dyslexic child and if it isn’t, are there are any access arrangements that can be made? Or, is there a more reliable indicator of potential at 11+ for secondaries to use? New to all of this, so thank you for any guidance.