Where to move for good grammar schools around London?

[Hope4newlife]

Hi all,

I have y1 boy and want to move back down south after divorce. I used to live in Chiswick but It’s too expensive now.
Aiming to relocate in an area with good grammar state schools and reasonable house price and closer to London to commute.

Which specific area should I look at?

More affordable areas of London? To save commuting costs and childcare to cover a commute?

Streatham Hill - brilliant primaries, Dunraven secondary, or a chance of Kingsdale in their lottery, or other good local schools, and within reach of the super selective if he gets a place - such as Graveney (short bus ride) or Sutton Grammars (train).

Within catchment for either of the Dulwich Charter schools? (same access to a Kingsdale lottery or scholarship place).

What's your budget?

I’m just going to echo other PPs and suggest it’s worth a second thought in terms of whether it’s really the best move to make. I’m in Kent. I think it’s really hard to access any child in Year 1 as grammar material or not. Only 25% of kids pass the 11+ so the probability of him going to a grammar is absolutely not guaranteed. From my own personal experience which is all I can go by really, I know many people with kids in grammars and not a single one of them wasn’t tutored (either by a professional tutor usually from Year 4 or at home by a graduate level parent). There is quite a lot of pressure and expectation that is put on 10/11 year olds - I’d ask yourself if that’s desirable?

The PP who flagged that you need to be careful in terms of area taking into consideration that he may very well not pass the 11+ is absolutely correct. If Kent is an area you are considering, we do have some very good Secondaries but they are fewer and far between and massively over subscribed. I’d check any area out on the government school comparison site to see how the Secondaries in catchment are performing before considering buying.

I’m outer Sevenoaks - boys from here in DD2s year (8) go to the grammars in Tonbridge (Judd), Tunbridge Wells (TWGB and Skinners), Maidstone (MGB and Oakwood) and will be in catchment for the new TWGB annexe that is opening in Sevenoaks. Trains from Sevenoaks take 30 minutes or 48 minutes to Victoria from our local village station. So it’s great for grammar catchment but hands up a lot more limited for good Secondary options for boys in which there is really only one decent potential.

It’s also worth remembering that even if you do get your child into a grammar it isn’t always great for every child. They could be at the lower end of the class and weirdly end up feeling less confident? They might feel happier being in a non selective where they are valued for many reasons not just As?

I would echo what @Newgirls has said. DS passed three super-selective 11+ exams so clearly capable but his grammar school career wasn't stellar at all. He did better in the sixth form and came more into his own than lower down the school (and he came out with better grades overall than many of his hitherto higher achieving friends) but his confidence took a big dent. I think he'd tell you himself that grammars are not the be-all and end-all.

Oh, and the girl from his class in primary school who has academically done best (to date)? She didn't pass the 11+, went to the local good comprehensive and is now reading Medicine at Cambridge.

And we didn't move into an area for the grammars - that was just a happy coincidence. You could be setting yourself and your DC up for disappointment to do so.

@TeenMinusTests couldn't agree more! I grew up in a grammar school area and ended up in Hampshire almost by accident. Schools are fantastic and no grammar school angst for years and years. What's not to like?

I lived in a grammar school county which had, into the bargain, a tier of grammar schools too.

One of our neighbours moved in anticipation of their dd’s success next door to the girls’ grammar. She did not pass the 11+ . They went mad. They joined the Liberals (who were campaigning to abolish grammar schools) and had anti-grammar school posters in their windows, the father wrote countless letters to the local paper complaining about “arrogant” grammar school girls passing their house, and after a year moved away, presumably to another county!

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

I would echo what *@Newgirls* has said. DS passed three super-selective 11+ exams so clearly capable but his grammar school career wasn't stellar at all. He did better in the sixth form and came more into his own than lower down the school (and he came out with better grades overall than many of his hitherto higher achieving friends) but his confidence took a big dent. I think he'd tell you himself that grammars are not the be-all and end-all.

Oh, and the girl from his class in primary school who has academically done best (to date)? She didn't pass the 11+, went to the local good comprehensive and is now reading Medicine at Cambridge.

And we didn't move into an area for the grammars - that was just a happy coincidence. You could be setting yourself and your DC up for disappointment to do so.

Yep

I know two kids who moved out of their grammars at 13 due to stress. Lots more at sixth form. Of course there are many for who it works beautifully for but an area with great non selective schools (eg Herts) is ideal really.

Grammar schools = Emperors New Clothes

OK, I understand they are an escape route for many who are surrounded by 'Requires Improvement' schools (if they are lucky enough to have a child who does well at 11+ type exams and does well on the day) , but per se their performance reflects the intake. If you have a bright child they will do as well in a competent comprehensive.

Boys can be slower to mature in the secondary transition. Some kids are geniuses at language and literacy and not so good on the maths that is crucial to most selective admission - or vice versa;

Good luck with your move, OP - I hope you find somewhere where your child finds good friends and a decent school, however his interests and abilities turn out.

I'd also say that the super-selectives can be ruthless about preserving their academic reputations. You will recall the case of pupils in Year 12 from St Olave's (I think it was) a couple of years ago who were being booted out after their non-stellar AS Level results? It is common for those who don't achieve sufficiently well (even if they have otherwise been exemplary pupils) to be turfed out after GCSEs.

Another thought: a lot of children in grammar schools (as elsewhere) are also tutored, so the schools' academic results are not necessarily just down to good teaching and bright pupils. I think you'll find that the higher the stakes are to achieve well the more investment will be put into ensuring that happens by parents!

If most children are tutored, then aren't those who pass, by definition, brighter than those who don't?

It's the same argument as drugs in sports, really.

A lot of grammars are single sex. Some people do not care but I always wanted my children to be in a mixed environment. So think about this before you move to a grammar area.

Personally @GrammarHopeful I don’t think so at all - it’s a complete fallacy. Obviously not all children sit the 11+, they are entered by their parents not the schools. Of the children from DD2’s class, only a smallish percentage sat the 11+ - 4 of the girls and 7 of the boys, all bar one of the girls (who hadn’t been tutored ) passed and two of the boys (likewise no tutoring). While I do know of one boy who had two years of tutoring and didn’t pass, the vast majority did. Likewise I know of no child who has not had any form of tutoring (either parental or paid for externally) who has passed.

While I’m sure there are kids out there who pass with no tutoring (there are always Mumsnetters who assert this is the case!), I think the idea that the kids in the grammars are the brightest and best is a load of cobblers. It’s basically paid for by the taxpayer superior schooling for the children of the middle classes.

I think there's a difference between normal grammars and super-selectives in terms of tutoring! The number of applicants per place seems to rise year on year in the latter meaning tutoring has become more and more a requirement!

As above @NewModelArmyMayhem18, whether they end up at a Super Selective or a ‘normal’ grammar, I think the uniting factor is they’ve all been tutored!

I also think there's also a lot of subterfuge with parents denying they're tutoring when they're fully doing so!

The same with getting DC tutored for GCSEs and A Levels - isn't it 40% of children in London and 20% across the UK who are tutored?

I must say, in fairness, from personal experience of my daughter's year group who have all just been through the 11+ process, there were no shock tutor-inflated surprises. The top kids in her year group all passed the super-selective London grammar exams and those who were middle or below didn't (but passed the independent school exams).

In DS's primary school class (about 23 of them?), of the three who got into super-selectives one did cause surprise as she had always been a middle-table child but was tutored from Year 3 onwards. I know lots of children who have got places and flourished but did have tutors (and they are possibly the ones who carry on having them through secondary school too).

If you are looking around London, Bucks is the obvious choice.

The grammars in Bucks are not super selective. They admit mostly on catchment. They use a county wide exam. So no sitting lots of exams. Although the secondary schools which are not grammars are not "comprehensive" (as alluded to above regarding Gt Marlow School) the best ones do have around 1/3 of high achieving children. They have 6th forms and get very good results.

Many parents here are not hung up on co-ed or not. Quite frankly they want a grammar. All the grammars are outstanding so people turn a blind eye to co-ed. It is top of few people's wish lists. However, SHF at Aylesbury, RLS Buckingham, Chesham GS and SWBS Marlow and Burnham GS are all co-ed. Some of the very highest achieving, and most sought after, grammar school are single sex.

The key is to choose a catchment area with a great secondary that is not grammar. Just in case. So Amersham, Waddesdon, Wendover, Wing, Marlow and a few other areas have great schools. Housing in central Bucks and North Bucks is not so expensive.

Yes, people tutor. However, the numbers going to the grammars is fairly generous so you do not have to be on the top table! There are plenty of decent primary schools too.

I must say it's kind of people to keep thoughtfully adding to this thread when the OP posted once and once only, more than three days ago!

@Chicchicchicchiclana
Obviously too stupid to notice. Thanks for pointing that out. My grammar school education was obviously wasted.