Any secondary Maths teachers - can I ask about Times Tables please?

[roisin]

DS1 (10 - yr6) is supposed to know all his tables.

In his opinion - and the opinion of his teacher - he does. (e.g. He recently got 100% in 'big tables test' 77 sums on a sheet of paper - I don't know how long they had to do it - and he was the only one in the year group to do so; and always scores highly in mental maths.)

But IMO he does not know them well enough.

If I ask him "What are seven eights?" he will say "erm...", look at his fingers, think for a few seconds, and eventually come up with the answer. Even much easier, lower tables like 3x6 he doesn't know instantly and automatically.

I think for success in secondary Maths he ought to know all his tables instantly, instinctively, by heart (not working them out very quickly in his head). So that for instance if he sees the number 24 he can immediately recall all the factors.

So who is right? Do you think I should stress about it now, and "make him learn them properly? Or will it all come right in the end, as he practices and uses them more?

I was trained as secondary maths and science and I agree with you - so much better for your son if he can recall instantly and the best thing for that is rote learning. I can remember doing this in grade 4 (so would have been 10)

OK am not a maths teacher but I seem to remember times tables becoming less important at secondary level.

But then as I went to a crap school with a succession of maths teachers who never bothered to mark anything I did in 5 years, you may wish to ignore me.

Guess who had a maths tutor?

I'd say they should be known by heart. Just to give an example - when it comes to things like simplifying fractions you want to be able to spot common factors e.g. 56/63 = 8/9 - you can't do this if you don't recognise that the two numbers are both in the 7 times table...

Children can say they know their tables when they can give you the answer to any x table question wthin 5 seconds.

I'm a science teacher rather than a maths teacher, but dd has problems with times tables so I had a chat with the maths dept and the SEN dept where I work.

They both said the same thine, repitition, to the point where the answer becomes reflex.

fwiw dd at 10 is still ropey, but it getting a bit better

I actually think the way they are taught is wrong.
When i was young we were taught
2x2=4
2x3=6
2x4=8
etc

My DC's are taught 2,4,6,8
3,6,9,12 etc

so the don't automatically associated the sum with the answer IYSWIM

defoo do it 2 x 2= 4

2,4,6,8, isn't going to help them so much long term INHO

OK, I will tell him his teacher is wrong and make him do more endless repetition practice!

That was meant to be an ironic wink rather than a grin.

Thank you all for agreeing with me!

R

I would also say recall within 5 seconds, with no fingers. And randomly, not in sequence. And then of course, to know the corresponding division facts! Counting in 2s, 4s, etc.. is part of the journey to times table knowledge earlier on, but they should be way beyond that by Year 6. Keep at it...... it's an invaluable tool for speedier maths. I often set up a speed competition between cocky child with calculator vs my brain. I always win hands down!! Competitive teacher, or what?

Thanks Clam. Are you secondary Maths teacher?

DS1 can do them all (I think) within 5 seconds, random questions.

But 5 seconds is ages. I can do them within about 0.5 seconds.

I'm a TA in secondary & we don't teach (or re-teach) times tables specifically. If he practices - he should get quicker but I wouldn't stress too much about it - if he can't recall the times table, he should be able to work out the answer by other means quick enough

I'm not a secondary maths teacher, but am somebody who got a B in A level maths and did some statistics as part of my degree and still don't really KNOW my tables! Why do you think that for success in secondary maths you need to know them by rote? Maybe the kids who can calculate easily them in their heads, like your DS (and me...) are the ones with the flair for manipulating numbers, which is much more what maths is about than rote repetition.

Primary, currently Year 6. Yes, to us 5 seconds is ages, but things ain't wot they woz in our day.
WhizzzBangWhizzz..... you're right - some chilren will never get them off pat, however hard they try, so not worth the stress. We also teach lots of strategies for seeing the connections e.g. 4X is double the 2s etc.. or if you can't remember 9x9, do 10x and subtract a 9 and so on.

I helped in DS3's class last year (Y4 then now Y5) taking the children for their times tables. They only got a sticker if they could do one set of tables in random order, getting each answer within 5 seconds. Problem is that they seem to have learnt the set they were going to be tested on and, after the test, promptly forgotten them.

Ds3's current teacher reckons very few of them know their tables - rather embarrassing for me! Dh and I are now badgering DS3 to learn his tables properly. I think he's rather fed up with asking for something and having to answer a question before he gets it!

Today DS yr 7 was doing his maths homework which was converting fractions and knowing his tables definitely made it a lot easier for him. Although he would have finished it a lot quicker if he had learnt to do them properly!

Thanks all - really helpful.
I like your approach Freckle: I will try that I think.

dd is in Year 6 and has been having weekly mixed multiplication and division tables tests since Year 5 - they are started on 50 questions with a time limit of ten minutes, then if they achieve 100%, they move to 100 questions in ten minutes. If they get 100% of these correct, they then moved to timed tests of 100 Q's. DD does it in about 3 minutes.
DS is in Year 4 and has weekly tests too of 50 multiplication and dividion facts of the tables they've learned to date - not timed yet I don't think.
I agree that the way they learn tables eg 2,4,6,8 etc isn't helpful. We walk around the kitchen every evening chanting them aloud! I then fire random ones at them, for added measure which they seem to enjoy!!