Part 2: SW London Girl's Indies 11+ Pandemic Panic!

[MumsRule20]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/3962084-Upcoming-girls-independent-SW-London-schools-11-exams?pg=40

Hello all, this thread continues from the previous "Upcoming Girl's Independent SW London Schools 11+ Exams" thread set up by @Oceane11Plus.

@PatoPato cleverly noticed, message slots were running low for the epic long thread as above, so all chat now continues here...

[Post edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

Standardisation is the process by which the raw scores of the test taking population are converted to a scale using a normal statistical distribution with 100 being average and every other typically 15 points being a standard deviation (similar to an IQ score). So a standardised score of 120 Is top 10 percent of the testing cohort. Again ISEB and CAT have different testing populations which is why there is a gap. It probably reflects that prep school kids test better on these types of exams due to significant prep.

Most schools including state schools use CATS as part of monitoring expected progress versus achievement and for setting / streaming but most don’t share the results with pupils or parents as it’s part of internal data monitoring. Some state schools do though particularly if there is an issue with underachievement relative to CAT

@montlieu Interesting question as playing a lot on my mind. I know that quite a few on this thread have had a positive outcomes following the ISEB test.

I haven’t been able to get actual score results but LU advised in an email to those who did not get interview that they can provide verbal feedback on overall performance from mid Jan, as do some other schools if you ask. It has transpired my DD’s were appalling and no where near what she had been achieving on Atom. She well and truly didn’t make the mark. Even on her VR and NVR, which ordinarily strong on Atom / Bond etc. practices.

So, I have had to try fathom what on earth did she do that day. I know physical / emotional considerations impacted her performance that day and she possibly was then away with the fairies. She had full capability as substantiated by Atom tests and in her consistent ranking at school, report and references. Otherwise, I never would have put her through the ordeal. She also passed the CEM assessment for CLSG which I understand is much harder than the ISEB pre test.

It is disappointing on the latter as means this pretty much discounts all our ISEB schools applied; of which 3 unsurprisingly based on above, have not invited back for interview and I have no doubt our 4th will be a definite ‘no’ (although they interviewed all applicants as part of the full picture consideration this year).

@PatoPato sounds annoying but glad DD sounds like she made the best of it. Mine is used to all that from her google class meets when it can be 30 of them all clamouring to be heard at time and all the background stuff. I think they have to keep it all on in case someone else might be pitching in answers in the background for a child. A friend said in their DD’s group interview for another school, someone’s phone kept ringing and the interviewer couldn’t work out whose it was and told them all off. They were thinking that they school would probably watch back the recording after to work out whose...

@MumsRule20 sorry to hear nerves got the better of your DD. It’s bound to happen to some and the fact all schools are using one test result means some very bright Dc aren’t showing their true ability.

@EITEL we’re all the schools your DD applied to using ISEB as well?

Has anyone heard from JAGS or know someone who has heard about scholarship assessments?

@WarmAndco3y

Has anyone heard from JAGS or know someone who has heard about scholarship assessments?

They said they were sending out scholarship invititations on the 20th I think.

@MumsRule20 commiserations to your DD on the ISEB - I wonder what on earth happened that day? Just shows how, while the ISEB can be great for reducing pressure with only one exam, it ends up being a very 'all eggs in one basket' approach. We are the same, we would never have put DD through this ordeal (and it has been an ordeal) if we didn't think she had a strong chance of getting in.

@stellagibbons, of course!!! I’m a day ahead of myself. Off work at the moment so need to occupy myself

@MumsRule20 this is one of the disadvantages of having a ‘common entrance’ type exam. So frustrating as an off day can tip things the wrong way.
This would’ve been even more devastating if all the schools you went for used ISEB. I wish your DD the best and hope she gets into a school the best fits her.

Re CAT scores, I agree with everything @LondonGirl83 says. Most importantly, CAT and ATOM scores are not interchangeable. CAT4 uses four 'batteries' to test: VR, NVR, spacial and quantitative; ATOM mock ISEBs tests in maths, English, VR and NVR. The simplest way to distinguish them is ATOM is more about attainment whereas CATs are more about intrinsic potential.

In theory, you can't tutor for CAT4 but I think scores can be improved on any computerized test with enough practice. However, I don't think it would be useful to attempt to increase a child's CAT score artificially, as one of the key purposes is to benchmark their score against under-achievement which can uncover things like SEN.

And despite the clever marketing, we shouldn't make the assumption that ATOM is directly comparable to ISEB. For DD, we used ATOM for a few weeks before she sat the real ISEB; however, after a while the same questions came up on ATOM which made DD's scores inflate beyond what she would have achieved in an unseen test. So that was the point to pull the plug!

I think the information up the thread about average SAS scores for those selective London girls' schools is probably about right. SAS scores for the intake in SW London independent schools will be above the national average for all kinds of reasons, but it's unrealistic that a whole year group would score above say 135 on CAT4 tests. There will be a range of ability.

Like others have said, I agree that there will be a lot of bright children this year who slipped through the cracks in the process which is desperately unfair. Hopefully there will be a shakeup with waitlists in the spring...

One thing that strikes me is the fundamentals of demand and supply for London independents haven't changed. i.e. there hasn't been a massive influx of extra children into London. If anything, due to the pandemic, many families have left London (although conversely, a few parents have moved their children to indies because of patchy provision in some state schools). Therefore the higher number of candidates this year must be primarily down to parents applying to multiple schools - and as we all know, they can only go to one school!

Sorry about the rant! There is so much mis-information on MN and other sites about the distribution of cognitive scores, so I just needed to unload that here...

I think Atom can be misleading - the first time a child does the test you get a pretty good indication of how they are going to perform if you add 8 marks to their score....if you do it a lot the same questions keep coming up and it can be quite easy to then have over inflated scores that don’t reflect what the child is capable of when encountering something for the first time. I think it needs to be treated with caution as it can lull you into a false sense of security.

In regards to CAT scores I am not sure quite what to think. Statistically kids that are averaging 135+ are like gold dust and much as we like to think us Londoners are special 🤪 I am not sure I buy the fact that they are all concentrated in the SE....most of them seem to be on mumsnet too! 🤪 After the dust had settled from my elder DCs exams I remember talking about this to other parents and in reality barely any DCs had CATs which averaged over 130.....most were averaging just above 120 with people having the odd outlier high score in one of the areas. @eitel for this reason I would definitely investigate what has happened with your DD as something seems to have gone wrong and even if you can’t change the results of these exams it might be something that can help you DD in the future....I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it!

Barging in because this is a fascinating discussion. I’ve just applied Yossahughes’ methodology to the very first time my child did a practice Atom test. Their average on their very first Atom mock (adding 8) worked out at 128 and still no ISEB success, including a knock back from a school traditionally seen as a banker. The score for one of the areas was very significantly lower than for the others. Coupled with what we know about them, I wonder if this is a possible indication of mild SEN. This is of course useful information to have. What’s upsetting though is that we didn’t spot this earlier; they’ve always been more than good enough for their state school and nobody ever really thought to consider why their strengths were so skewed- it tended to be put down to a lack of effort in certain areas. We’ve got a lot of work to do now to build up our child’s self esteem.

@matsikula I do not that some of the schools (whs and leh) have a “cut off” score for each area of the test and even if you get 100 percent in one area you still have to get above the threshold in all the others. This can sometimes account for some of the results and a few people fell could of this in previous years (and found this out when they sought feedback). I am not sure why these schools are so inflexible with the “cut off” across all areas but I guess if they have 1000 candidates they need to find some way of getting those numbers down.

Sorry for all the typos - fat fingers and autocorrect!!

Another interesting “insight” I learned along the way was that schools with a junior school tend to focus more on academic potential than schools that start at 11. Sometimes they are trying to bolster a weak academic junior school intake (as who can tell who is really smart at the age of 4 or 7?) and they may already have lots of great artists, sports people and musicians etc. At the co-ed schools that start at 11 they are more interested in the whole child as they are building their population from scratch ....this is why we stuck one co-ed into the mix as we thought they might appreciate DDs extra curricular achievements...

There’s not a lot to add to what’s already been said accept perhaps that SW London is notoriously competitive at the best of times and this is a bulge year. I remember when DD started primary that the catchment nearly halved and she only got in as she was a sibling. Add to that the ISEB effect of more parents applying to more schools and it’s a big mess.

I really feel for those who have landed unexpected results and it’s definitely worth investigating.. I have a strong hunch there will be more occasional places than normal in the Autumn term.

@stellagibbons @WarmAndco3y @EITEL @LondonGirl83 Thank you and lots of excellent and very valid points being made and by everyone commenting above re: scoring, process etc.

In this climate, I do think it is unfair if ISEB pretest is being used as a sole consideration to determine whether or not a child is invited to interview.

I guess the system for many schools has not been adapted as we hoped and this year is as selective as ever, with no differentiation. The anxieties and unknowns our children have had to adapt to on top of the standard 11+ expectations, will inevitably affect some more than others and this has not been distinguished or considered with a number of schools. This is what makes it even more unfair and puts those who have full ability at a total disadvantage. Such a shame.

@Yossahughes Yes I heard similar too from a teacher I know at one of the leading schools where very competitive 11+ intake due to so many from the Juniors moving up to carry on, so their testing has to be super rigorous to get a certain applicant / candidate...

@Matsikula Perhaps it should be Atom we question rather than the school's interpretation? Hmm... I was always of the understanding that Atom was using the standard ISEB Pre-Test syllabus (which includes 11+ so Yr 6 elements) rather than the syllabus to end of Year 5 curriculum which is what ISEB and the school's said this years Pre-Test would be testing (taking into consideration lost learning since March 20) and to make it fair to pupils across sectors??

@Matsikula Sorry to add above, so this meant that Atom ISEB tests was or should have been harder than what the actual exam should have been?...

I’m not questioning either the schools, just trying to understand what has happened so that we can pick ourselves up and move on in a positive way.

I was interested in the suggestion that the very first Atom test might give you the best information on your child’s abilities and that perhaps the repeated practice is a waste of time. In the space of just a few mock tests, our child’s score improved quite a bit, including on the weak area, but perhaps that didn’t make any meaningful difference to their ISEB score.

I’m not sure if our school has ever done CATS, but wish I’d had this sort of rich information when there was still time to act on it in relation to secondary schools.

@EITEL I understand your frustrations and disappointments. So sorry to hear this and hope you can also try get some answers or feedback to help quantify what happened for your DD. X

Just logged into the LEH information session...apparently just over 500 sat the test and just over half are being interviewed. Everyone being interviewed has “passed” the entrance exam and after interview you either get an offer or a place on the waitlist....she wouldn’t divulge how many offers they make as this information is commercially sensitive but she did say that they over offer above the 60-70 places they have....it would be SO interesting to know though, bearing in mind that the top 10 percent of girls will probably have offers at other schools too and LEH may not be their first choice and could have between 2 and 9 other offers so the odds of securing them is something like 20%. So I reckon they probably have to offer around 120 -150 places?

At LU this year, 1500 sat and 450 invited for interview. Only Maths & English scores looked at from ISEB.

@mumsrule20 oh my goodness - 1500 candidates!!! That’s totally insane! It’s a total lottery..