Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Best working towards a 5 at Foundation Level maths rather than the higher paper?

37 replies

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 09:07

Ds (Y9) is in the foundation group and from contact with his teacher, he thinks he’s capable of achieving grade 5. Recent review indicated he was currently at level 3, based on recent test.

I’m new to all of this so am clueless but from what I’ve read you have to answer so many more questions correctly at FL to gain a 5, whereas the HL paper you don’t, but there’s a risk of failing this paper completely.

Ds did have a tutor but she’s told me she really doesn’t think we’ll need her if he’s not in the higher level group. She thinks Ds is more than capable of achieving a 5 but judging from her reaction she sees the higher level as the better option? Although Ds is great on a one to one level, he will often lack focus in the class and gets easily distracted, so I’m not sure how he would fare in the higher level group.

After honest opinions on which option you think is the right one for those borderline dc.

OP posts:
ladyvimes · 19/12/2020 09:13

There is a massive jump between the foundation and higher papers. If he is currently on a 3 he definitely should take the foundation paper and not the higher. If he takes the higher paper and doesn’t score well enough for a 5 he might end up much much lower!

TeenPlusTwenties · 19/12/2020 09:18

I'm
a) following with interest due to my y11
but also
b) wondering why on earth they are apparently deciding on foundation v higher at this stage in year 9, over 2 years before the GCSEs.

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 09:30

@ladyvimes thank you, it’s good to know that this is the best approach due to currently at level 3. Teacher did state that some in the higher level group were only at this level after the recent test but that it wouldn’t mean Ds would get moved up etc

@TeenPlusTwenties I’d love the opportunity to sit and ask the teacher at some point, hopefully we’ll be able to have a few more F2F meetings in 2021.

OP posts:
EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 09:33

I think with most of 2020 being remote teaching, Ds year group in and out of isolation since the start of term, so much disruption, then he’s probably better where he is?

I’d like to think if he showed promise they would think of moving him but then the gap will have widened further?

OP posts:
EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 16:58

Anyone else lend their expert view?

OP posts:
catndogslife · 19/12/2020 17:11

I would agree that it's too early to make a definite decision about Foundation / Higher tier in Y9.
Other posters would be correct about staying at Foundation level if he were a grade 3 and Y11 now, but a lot of progress could still be made over the next 2 years.
Your statement about fewer marks needed to obtain a grade 5 on the Higher paper doesn't take into account that the questions are harder on the Higher paper.
I would think that at some stage the school may need to check how he does on both types of paper, there are grade 5 questions on both.
However not being able to access some of the harder questions on the Higher paper does demoralise some students and so they are better off doing Foundation.

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 17:28

@catndogslife thank you. Hopefully there will be opportunities in 2021 to stretch Ds, see how the next review goes and go from there.

As it stands currently, being in and out of isolation etc, it’s taking its toll.

Foundation might be the better option.

OP posts:
clary · 19/12/2020 17:29

My subject is MFL not maths, but it still has tiered papers. If a student was currently a 3 and capable of a 5, No Way would I have them sit higher. Why?

Higher is IMHO only for those who have a strong chance of a 6+. Yes you can get a 5 with a much lower score, but the questions are a lot harder. In MFL, basically the easiest question in the H writing paper is the hardest question in the F writing paper. So if that is hard for you then you would struggle with the rest.

Would you really want to be going into an exam where 75% of the content was closed to you? How demoralising would that be - you might even do worse on what you did know as a result.

If your DC is in yr 9 then I would imagine there is still time to change tiers if they suddenly make a massive improvement. .

user1471530109 · 19/12/2020 17:32

If Maths is similar to Science, there would be a very real danger of him being awarded a U on higher. They've removed the grade 3 from higher (for science). So less than a 4 would be a U.
But no teacher would be saying higher or foundation with 2 years to go.

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 17:33

@clary thank you.

We will see how the next six months goes and hopefully have more of an idea where Ds sits within the grading.

OP posts:
EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 17:35

@user1471530109 I’ve an email stating Ds, in Y9 is currently ‘set to take the foundation paper’.

Hopefully not set in stone.

OP posts:
EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 17:41

This came about, as currently, since returning to school in September, Ds has been put in a mixed ability class, whereas normally they would be in sets. They’ve been going over very basic fractions.

There seemed to be much more challenging work towards the end of Y8, via online lessons.

It was during this exchange of emails that I was told Ds was set to take the foundation paper!

OP posts:
Bridecilla · 19/12/2020 17:43

I'd stick with Foundation if he's currently Grade 3.

Much rather he get a 5 confidently on Foundation than struggles to hit the grade boundary on Higher.

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 17:47

@Bridecilla talking to Ds, I think he’s happy with this.

OP posts:
BreakfastOfWaffles · 19/12/2020 17:49

Another thing to consider is what type of person he is regarding confidence and competition. If he were at the bottom of the higher group, would he find the other children an inspiration to do better or would he feel intimated and his confidence knocked? Would he be in a group with the very best kids or one lower, ie still at higher level but not necessarily looking at 8/9 for final grade?

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 19/12/2020 17:52

@BreakfastOfWaffles you hit the nail on the head.

I think Ds (unless things change drastically over the next 12 months) would feel more confident in the foundation group, in a higher position, rather than lower in the higher group.

OP posts:
timeforanewstart · 20/12/2020 00:08

All i will say is my son predicted 5's he did higher level chemistry and got a u, we wish he had done foundation like he did with physics and got a 4
Also did higher maths and biology and got 4's
Should be one paper in my opinion

Bridecilla · 20/12/2020 00:10

@timeforanewstart

All i will say is my son predicted 5's he did higher level chemistry and got a u, we wish he had done foundation like he did with physics and got a 4 Also did higher maths and biology and got 4's Should be one paper in my opinion
Way too much Subject matter for 1 tier in Maths/ science
Blueemeraldagain · 20/12/2020 00:19

I teach in a small SEMH school and we have this debate every year. The reality is that the percentage you need to get a 5 is much lower on the higher paper than on the foundation. I think sometimes as much as 40% to 70% (but I’m not a maths specialist so I can’t be totally sure of the specifics each year), However, that “40%” will be made up of a lot of 1-3 marks out of 2-5 marks. If your DS has the maturity and resilience to understand he need to focus on the maybe 15% of questions he can get full marks on and the other 25% of getting 1/3 to 1/2 marks per questions without getting disheartened and just skipping questions he thinks are gobbledegook then it may suit him better.

The best test would be to print off some papers and see.

Thimbleberries · 20/12/2020 09:46

Does he have any interest at all in science? I have tutored some pupils who were set to do Foundation all along, and then part way through year 10 (or later) started looking more closely at sixth form options, to find that the chosen sixth form requires a 6 in maths for all the science subjects. I don't know if that is common, though. It's been disappointing for those children, as they sometimes have more motivation at that point, having some idea of what they might want to work towards, and also often bright enough that they potentially could get a 6, but there is just too much work to catch up on to make it feasible for most of them. With the questions including more 'problem solving' ones that integrate different topics, it can be hard to try to teach them just enough that they could get more marks and achieve a 6, because separating out the material into different grades doesn't entirely work (obviously some topics are clearly harder or easier, but not everything).

So depending on how setting works at your school, and whether it's likely that he might develop a later interest in some science subject, it might be better to stay in a set that has an option of doing higher, even if he doesn't ultimately do it, at least for a while.

A good chunk of the foundation paper actually has stuff that has been taught since about Year 6/7 - all the basic whole number, fraction and decimal calculations (+ - x /), finding fractions or percents of things, place value, areas perimeters, straightforward word problems, simple ratio, basic co-ordinates, properties of shapes, etc. If a child is secure on all those topics, then they might enjoy the challenge of learning the harder foundation content and onto the higher. But if any of the basic skills like that are missing, especially if they've been reviewed each year, then Foundation is likely to be more useful - those are many of the skills that are actually helpful in life, and it's better for a child to really understand what fractions are, or how to find a percent, etc, than to learn trigonometry or factorising or whatever, even when those topics aren't necessarily hard to learn how to do (they can be a bit meaningless for some Foundation students, even if they know what the steps are).

You could certainly look at a Foundation tier paper with him now, and make sure that he can get all the basic questions and the problem solving using those basics, and that might help you decide.

Bring back the intermediate tier! And intermediate sets.

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 20/12/2020 10:11

@Blueemeraldagain maturity might come in time, when he’s been given the more challenging papers in the past, he’s felt quite down about his low score, then again I really don’t think it’s been fully explained to him that it will be low as it’s the harder paper, either that or he wasn’t listening!

@Thimbleberries it’s difficult to know currently how he’ll feel about science, most of this year has been online learning and since returning his year group have been in and out of isolation. No experiments happening right now, no passion in any of the sciences unfortunately but I believe that’s more to do with lockdown and all the disruption this year.

I think Y9 might be a complete write off as far as proper education goes, I can’t imagine it’s going to improve vastly when they return in the new year, I believe they’ll be in and out of isolation again, which is frustrating and so disruptive but well, we’ll see.

It’s difficult isn’t it for those dc who fall into this middle ground.

OP posts:
ReindeerAntlerLights · 20/12/2020 19:41

@EmmaWithTheGreatHair At my son's school the cut off for sitting a higher paper is consistently achieving a solid 6, not on the border of 5/6 but well into the 6 to allow for any issues answering questions on the day. Submission for GCSE papers is I believe the February of year 11 so there is time if your son is willing to push himself.

IIRC on the AQA higher maths paper 50% of it is geared toward distinguishing the 7-9 category. I am happy to be corrected on that. So as parents we were told at maths GCSE evening in school a couple of years ago that basically it can absolutely destroy a child's confidence if they look at a higher paper and just cannot do half of it.

when he’s been given the more challenging papers in the past, he’s felt quite down about his low score which confirms your happier to be top of a foundation.

However, I will say that this is something that can be worked on. Looking ahead can sometimes help motivate. I know that A levels feel like a lifetime away at this stage but does he want to do them? Look at the entry levels for sixth forms now. Let him see where he needs to be.

But I will say that doing maths every day in short bursts can make a huge difference to their grade. He will feel more confident if he understands the maths. If children are missing basic concepts then building on those is so much harder. This is literally down to him, he can turn this around, maybe with your help, HegartyMaths or CorbettMaths every day.

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 21/12/2020 14:29

@ReindeerAntlerLights thank you.

Absolutely agree, Ds does need to work on doing a little every day. Boy, I’ve tried my hardest to encourage even the Corbett five a day and he’ll do it in fits snd starts but takes much cajoling, especially if he deems it outside of school/homework time.

He will also tend to do the minimum he can get away with, which again, really doesn’t bode well for the higher paper does it Confused

I’m hoping maturity will make him see the light, that hard work does pay dividends. When he knuckles down he can do excellent work but unfortunately he’s not consistent.

Currently he’s stating he’d like to work in the police force, although this is very early days, things might dramatically change in the next six months, that’s if Covid allows it!

OP posts:
ReindeerAntlerLights · 21/12/2020 15:10

@EmmaWithTheGreatHair I do think maturity comes into it.

We showed our children cold, hard facts. So if he wants to join the police then I believe the application changes shortly so he will need a degree. We also pointed out that we don't live with our parents, that we had to make this life through working.

We showed them the value of everything, so looked at salaries, housing local to us on Zoopla because on Zoopla at the bottom of the page it shows a typical mortgage and other household bills. On top of this they need to understand other outgoings such as council tax, insurance, broadband, mobile phone, food etc. How are they getting to work? Car? Bus? Walking?

Another interesting way to show them is How much a room in your house costs so literally what you could charge an adult living in a room in your house.

Make it a game, what type of house do they want, car. holidays, games console etc?. They need to see stuff costs a lot of money. Mine know th costs of our cars, furniture, flooring etc they just don't know our salaries but have an idea as Ds1 is going to uni next year so they know for the student loan calculator.

The more qualifications you have the more choices you have. At GCSE he will be competing with children in private schools with parents paying at least £12k a year for their child not to mention Eton and the tens of thousands a year plus children living in deprived areas who are motivated to educate their way out of poverty etc. Show him the statistics of who gets what grades wise.

At some point the bank of Mum and Dad should cease. He needs to see now how his effort will affect the life he will have.

EmmaWithTheGreatHair · 21/12/2020 15:39

@ReindeerAntlerLights great post, thank you!

Absolutely going to go through this with Ds, showing him the cold hard facts!

I know there are lots of Y9 dc who absolutely have this work ethic, don’t take any cajoling into getting their work done, I do envy their parents!

Ds is last minute, fly by the seat of his pants, kind of child. I do get frustrated but I really am hoping he will one day realise I only want the best for him.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread