Lower Sixth Form - Westminster vs. St Paul Boys' vs. Magdalen College School vs. Sevenoaks

[poodlelovermama]

We are writing from overseas. The offers from these schools have made us excited for one hour last week. But the dilemma and struggling have been lingering on our minds for over one week. It is a pity that we cannot fly to these campuses and meet with the teachers and students. We wanted to feel the school cultures and environments. We could merely judge from websites, league tables and words of mouth. My boy is academic sound, love sports. He used to a school sports team and orchestra members. However, he pretty understands that he needs to focus on studying and extended project/ volunteering to build up his portfolio for university application. Thus school sports facilities may not be a big concern. Yet, he wants a school that is not too much drilling on past exam papers and make students trained/moulded to be a 'book worm'. He said there is a long way to finish college and a balance of life during these two years is also important. Honestly speaking, he is from an elite school and he feels a little burnt out during the past two years. Because students are only measured by scores and grades, awards. The atmosphere is very competitive with very pushy parents. The pastoral system is so nominal. Everyone just acts cool and indifference except for champions awards and scores and performances. We do not want to repeat the life under this model. Please kindly advise. Urgent. The deadlines to offer acceptance is due in the coming days.

Are you looking as a day boy or boarding?

These are all schools which are going to push him for excellent exam results. Does he have GCSEs, if not I would investigate which are used to taking kids for 6th form coming from a different educational background.

I only know about MCS - which is a day school. Would you be coming to live in Oxford?

MCS very much an academic hothouse by the way.

Thanks all for the responses. We are looking for a day school. I will move to the neighbourhood of the school we finally pick. He does not have IGCEs. All these schools in fact have asked about this when we applied. At this stage, what we make us consider will be based on the school culture in particular pastoral care, teaching style and students. We think they share similar academics results and good uni placements. The only thing we are not sure about the process and methodology they are using to drive students. What happens or attitude for these schools if the student cannot catch up? How is school life apart from studying, do they encourage sports or other activities or volunteering? How are the students in general, after all being the elites of these elite schools?

Wonder if all these hothouses in fact? Which is I think this may be the reality. If not how can they sustain such a good record as proud traditions. I may see if there are other factors like pastoral, teaching style, peer group in general, to strike the balance of a academic demanding environment.

sorry everyone if we have looked into the schools from a too simple perspective or in case if we had missed out anything. We are really at a very puzzling crossroad, We knew this chat forum until late. Time is an essence for the decision now. Please do share as much as you know. Every single piece of information is valuable to us.

There is a big difference between living in rural Kent and central Oxford/London. If you choose Sevenoaks where will you live? I would base the decision on geography/cost of living etc.

Yes absolutely. Weekly boarding may be an option for some schools. Then we will live in rural part iso downtown London. Sevenoaks we may pick full boarding and then it would be a different issue for the family house location

Can you agree on co-Ed vs single sex first to whittle the choice down ?

Good idea - we prefer coed

Congratulations to your son on receiving such stellar offers!

It must be extremely difficult to make a decision under the current trying circumstances. Presumably you applied through an agent? (It would not be common for a family applying in person to choose such geographically diverse schools.)

Given that sixth form is only two years I don't actually think the distinction between co-ed and single sex is, in itself, crucial. I certainly wouldn't make it the deciding factor. (Our child attended a single sex full boarding school.)

We obviously don't know your locality or local perceptions of English schools, but you have in your list two world famous schools, one nationally known and one a little more obscure. The last would seem an odd choice for a child coming from abroad with no connection (such as family or friends) to Kent, and no strong, informed preference for this school in particular. Simply because, although a well respected school, (as far as I know,) it may not be a recognised name internationally if your son plans to attend university elsewhere.

Does he really have no preference himself? Please remember he is the one who will be attending - and he will do best academically in an environment where he feels relaxed and happy.

Do you and he know London or Oxford at all? Do you have friends or relatives in or close to either city? Have you had no opportunity at all to speak (virtually) to parents or pupils at any of the schools?

Magdalen does have a reputation as a hothouse - it's impossible for me to say how accurate that is or how it compares to the others in pushiness.

As regards the London schools - you need more knowledgeable advice! And your son's considered opinion.

NC to avoid outing myself (current parent), but I don't think Sevenoaks is an odd inclusion at all, especially for an international family. One of the biggest and best performing IB schools in the world on points average, with a very international student body (esp sixth form) and regularly sends 20% plus to overseas universities (Ivy League etc). Half an hour or less into London on the train (really really not rural Kent!!), with plenty of the day students commuting out from South London daily. Coed, which you say you prefer. Academics are definitely the ultimate focus, but there's loads going on in terms of drama, music, sport, plus lots of service activity (essential part of IB). We haven't done sixth form yet, so no experience of that, but we certainly havent found the atmosphere hot-housey so far - kids work hard but there's definitely an expectation that they'll throw themselves into other stuff too. Can't say much about pastoral care as we haven't really needed to 'use' it much IYSWIM, but seems a pretty happy place.

Agree it's not as high profile in the UK as a couple of the schools on your list, so not the place to go if you want the English public school cachet, but otherwise I think it ticks lots of your boxes. Don't know the other schools at all except vaguely by reputation though, so can't compare. I think IB vs A levels needs to be a key part of your decision though, as that really is a huge difference.

At many schools the EPQ (extended project qualification) is becoming popular as an adjunct to A levels. Magdalen has its own long standing variation on this where students actually have the opportunity to interact with university academics for their projects. Whereas the EPQ emphasises process as much as content I think what MCS does is more valuable for academic students. And I say this having had a daughter do an EPQ (and we did consider switching her to MCS for 6th form).

I don't know anything helpful about the other schools. Oxford traffic is an issue and a lot of students have a significant commute to MCS, so think carefully about where you would want to live / where you could afford as part of your decision making. Oxford's a lovely place to live if it works out for you. Some of my son's friends are at MCS and they are steady studious types but still make time for a range of other interests. (my son was recommended to a different sort of school which is working well for him)

I hope you can get some more information to help your choices.

I should say - "Great thanks" dear All... As an overseas applicant, it is absolutely not an easy process starting from applications to the final decision, even though we have friends living in the UK and gave us a bit of advice. However, likewise to handbags, LV or Hermes may look elegant to lady A but may not fit lady B's style. So that's why I started here to gather some more information from a local perspective.

All these schools we applied have shared one common ground for sure - for its academic excellence. Taking into account of such a large database with 3000+ public schools in UK, we do not feel school ranks 10th is much inferior to ranks 2nd....plus some factors are being excluded and not reflected in the league tables.

As my son has been at a very selective school of single-sex for years, we treasure co-ed. Girls' mindsets and attitudes have stimulating effects on boys. And boys can start to learn mutual respect and cooperation with the opposite sex. Apart from this, we value peers of diversified cultural and social background. We want our boy to step out of the comfort zone in these regards. That's why we plan to step out of the geographical boundaries too. If we pick the settings exactly same as here, I can see no reason why we have to root up the establishments here and just stay in an area of our own established network of old friends, then craving for academic records only. If it were this case, we may have opted not to move and stay at home town, with our limited retirement funds....(HAHA...).

I agreed Sevenoaks has its gems. Students are brought up in a somewhat different atmosphere from that of traditional schools. Magdalen has its good program, thank you Pythonesque for your honest sharing. Indeed, it is good to know all of you here....everyone expresses his/her viewpoints and it greatly helps to map out our minds.

Magdalen college is an elite hot-house type school similar to the one it sounds like this young man already attends. It is also day only. I have lots of friends with boys there and have also treated many of its pupils (I am a local doctor) and whilst for the right type of boy it is an excellent school it is not for everyone.

I don't know the others personally, although had lots of friends as an undergrad who attended westminster and st paul's. They were definitely all rounders, high achievers but a range of personalities.

'hothouse' really a term sounds scary...but quite funny that I know mothers from two of the listed schools here have very contrasting views even in the same school. Seems like it is a term relative to one's expectations and kids' situation

All these schools are full of extra bright children. Getting the best possible exam results is what they do and everyone knows that! It’s not really an unsuitable atmosphere unless dc cannot bear to be second best. Someone even has to be bottom!

I would look at Geography. London is different to the other two. Look at your DS’s hobbies. Where are they accommodated? Would he like Oxford, Sevenoaks or London? Where would he like to go to university and possibly work afterwards? How international are the schools? Where would he find soul mates? I’d look at a broader education and what his interests are. The academics are a given. Top notch!

Getting the best possible exam results is what they do and everyone knows that! It’s not really an unsuitable atmosphere unless dc cannot bear to be second best. Someone even has to be bottom!

I'm not sure I understand this. They are very different schools. Perhaps PP could reveal which of these schools she has knowledge of. It seems a very MN, damn with faint praise, view, of the sort that is often not backed by real experience. .

Mine were at Westminster, one there from 13, the other starting in sixth form. The was no sense that they or their friends felt under pressure, though a minority of others might have been anxious and dealing with over-high parental expectations. The school, if anything, did its best to avoid adding to the problem.

One difference, perhaps advantage, that Westminster has over St Pauls is that it operates like a boarding school. Longer hours, Saturday school and a house system. The joy is that it keeps pushy parents at arms length. Your contact is with the Head of House and apart from parents evenings or when specific problems arise, teachers are left to get on with educating your children. There are also virtually no academic prizes and no prize-giving for parents to attend. You, and your children, tend to have little idea how others are performing. My daughter captained a sports team and they had a terrific cup run, with the head and his wife regularly turning up to support them. If you read the school news you would have thought that was a greater achievement than her friend who was selected for an international maths Olympiad team.

The point about Westminster is that it offers a broader education. Yes it gets terrific results, as it should with good teaching and a very selected intake. But pupils are expected to do more: to take part in school activities whether music, drama or an ice marathon in Finland. There are two full afternoons of sport each week, as well as weekend matches and inter house sport competitions, with the emphasis on taking part and with a wide range to suit almost everyone. Exams and marks are not the focus. Pupils are expected to contribute in class, and discuss and learn how to research and think for themselves, and defend their ideas within a very talented group.

As a result DCs peers are off doing some amazing things. scholarships in Singapore to study robotics, president of the Oxford Union, cox of the winning Cambridge crew, driving an F1 car, finalist in BBC young musician of the year, the list is long and varied and none of them are yet 25. My DC are doing nothing as starry but they picked up that they can aim high, but this ambition needs to be matched by hard work, focus and a range of skills.

The most important thing for us was that both really enjoyed their time at Westminster. Our daughter in particular. Two years was way too short.

We know a teacher and a few pupils at Westminster well and their judgmental attitude, snobbiness and delight in name dropping their school turn us off ever sending a child there. The pp has rammed that view home to me by listing the illustrious alumni. Long live elitism!

Personally I’d choose Sevenoaks. Co-Ed all the way through making it a different atmosphere, v selective but more down to earth.

@poodlelovermama - my DC are/have been at one of the London day schools not on your list.

It always makes me smile that the term 'hothouse' is used by posters to describe schools their DC aren't at. No parents at the schools consider them to be at a 'hothouse' - or at least none of the parents I talk to do. Yes the pace is fast and school life is busy but it's fine for most of the pupils most of the time. It wouldn't be for everyone but the schools know what they're looking for and find pupils that can cope.

Fun fact, the word ‘hothouse’ is one of a select number of words to be the latest additions to the Oxford English Dictionary.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/learningenglishwithoxford.com/2020/01/09/5-new-words-2020/amp/

Given the definition I don’t see why people find it objectionable or amusing as a descriptor. Seems accurate to me.

That definition isn't objectionable (to me) but I don't think that's how the term is typically used on MN!

I had children at one of the schools you list but in your position I would go for Sevenoaks - co-ed, great IB results, really popular with international students, eclectic student body. Friends have children who went in 6th form after very international schooling and highly recommend it.

I’m not sure how Westminster School enabled Jenson Button to be F1 world champion?! More to do with his dad and his motif racing business I would have thought. And his inherited skills behind the wheel. Not sure if Westminster taught him this? Could be wrong of course.,

It’s clear to most people that if they choose a top performing school there is competition within the pupil body. It’s absolutely impossible for there not to be. Whether parents know or not is something very different.