A Levels combination for languages at university?

[Whathappenedtothelego]

(Not my DC but my opinion has been sought.)

Teen thinks they almost certainly want to study languages (quite possibly 2+ languages at university).

Choice will affect whether they move schools for 6th form.

School A (current school) you have to do 3 A levels +either EPQ or core maths or work experience or sports leadership or 4th A level/As level.

School B you can do 3 A levels plus various enrichment modules and some of these can be learning a new language from scratch.

School A is obviously familiar which is a big plus.
DC would study 2 languages A levels and history A Level. History syllabus looks v interesting.
Then stuck on 4th option.
Doesn't want to do EPQ or leadership.
Not good at maths.
Might like teaching work experience or Psychology AS or English Lit AS. Seems a lot of work. Also psychology might be too mathematical.
School A gets better A level results.

School B harder to get to by public transport.
2 languages and history A level (syllabus a bit war-heavy, definitely not as interesting).
Could then do short modules in other languages and maybe some teaching work experience too.
Learning new languages would definitely be right up their street.
Wouldn't know anyone there.

Basically is it worth moving schools for the "enrichment" part of the curriculum?
Or should that be a lesser consideration than the history A level syllabus?
Also any thoughts on English Lit or Psychology AS?

Is it a disadvantage to just do 3 A levels nowadays?
I only did 3 - parents asking my advice didn't do any. I'm worried I will give outdated advice.

What is the reasoning in going into teaching for just a couple of years? Was that planned?

I've just checked the bursary. It's currently £10K. That just covers the 1
year PGCE course. You will have a minimum £10K debt on top of that for living costs, plus the debt incurred for a 4 or (in Scotland) 5 year modern languages degree. So will start your working life with a debt of approximately £90K.

Not £90k that’s very high. Of course the Erasmus grant might still be around in some guise for Y3. As a teacher you won’t be earning lots for some years so the grad tax is very low for teachers. Some pay virtually nothing for a few years. In fact they probably will never pay it off. So what you “owe” is utterly meaningless. Hopefully new teachers understand this!

DD as a barrister is paying far more. Training costs were £30,000 on top of degree plus living expenses for her. But awards/bursaries are available if you are good enough and poor enough. There are plenty of options regarding what you do as a MFL grad but thinking about the grad tax isn’t worth it. Do what suits you.

Plenty of science grads don’t enter teaching or don’t stay in it. The bursary and teach first were designed to encourage teachers to join the profession but they are not retention schemes.

I'd bear in mind that the government can change the rules on paying back the student loan any time they want, and have done so in the past even when they weren't the current load of corrupt fuckers.
As a rule of thumb I reckon student fees are £10K a year and living costs are another £10K.
There's no sign of the Erasmus scheme surviving for UK students.

Morechocolate do you mean it's a bad idea to do languages at university or a bad idea to go into teaching after?

I think the languages plan is fairly definite at this stage, but teaching is just an idea.

By the way I was texting them and giving thoughts from this and the other linked thread - think EPQ is now more of a definite no . I haven't mentioned the 90k debt - surely that can't be right??

I got something completely wrong when I posted yesterday, if they went to school with boring history syllabus they would want to do English Language for 3rd A Level instead of history - but current school doesn't offer Eng Lang, hence English Lit vs Psychology AS conundrum.

Also is now wondering about French, Spanish and drama A level, and history AS - (you can't do drama AS and 4 A levels is too much, in answer to the obvious question).

Depends what university they are aiming for; I expect competitive ones will prefer history to drama. More research and essays.

Also, as an oxbridge languages graduate, I'm slightly offended at the idea that it's easy to get in

If it's any help, DS got into a combined English-Lit-plus-MFL degree without any language A-level at all. (Does have the gift of the gab, though!)

School A sounds better. Three good A levels better than diluting grades.

Things to think about are Erasmus and year abroad support.

Content and style of the course - outs decided against Oxford because of course structure. She wanted to primarily focus on the spoken language rather than literature and culture.

The language choices and potential usefulness post degree if she wants to use her subjects. Friends daughter did Mandarin and jumped into GCHQ. Her year in China was far more challenging than our daughters in Italy. Our daughters friend in Russia was unable to come home or have friends out to stay - some cope better than others with full immersion.

Will ERASMUS exist for British students post-Brexit? I doubt it

@AnotherEmma

Will ERASMUS exist for British students post-Brexit? I doubt it

No I think not - which is why it needs thinking about before university. Some may offer wider opportunities that pay, via organisations like the British Council.

So lack of Erasmus might affect the year abroad if they wanted to spend it at a university abroad?

I teach EPQ. One of my students has learned Welsh and her EP is a children's book in Welsh/English (artefact). It looks amazing.

My DD's boyfriend is a Cambridge MML student. His languages are German & Latin. He is exploring PGCE options. German attracts funding as there are not so many graduates. However, to do a MFL PGCE, he has to include French or Spanish at many institutions. Alternatively, he could use his Latin and offer Classics.

OP, school 1 sounds better. Do your research on the EP as it is a recognised and valued qualification by an increasing number of institutions. I am happy to help if you want to PM me.

I agree with everything said about Italian, plus as a linguist with French and Spanish behind her Italian will be easy (I did A level French, Spanish from scratch and an enrichment Italian course - the Italian was very basic comparatively - but this was back in the day).

Thank you Malbecfan, that's very kind of you It's my SIL's DC, not mine, but I will ask them.

@Whathappenedtothelego

So lack of Erasmus might affect the year abroad if they wanted to spend it at a university abroad?

I believe so. Ours did work with British Council rather than an Erasmus university course. She had a fabulous time and came home better off than she’d left. I just think it bears exploring a little, before committing to a course. Ours did Spanish and Italian but was already pretty fluent in French. She’d originally wanted Spanish and Arabic but was advised that as a British woman, Arabic might not be as useful as she imagined and work opportunities using Arabic would be limited.

Students do need to move away from thinking that post grad they will use their languages in every job. I know a highly paid female banker who did Arabic at Oxford. It’s a great vehicle to a good job. They really don’t have to be translators or teachers. There a very big world of jobs out there.

Students should not be put off doing anything because someone says they won’t use it. But if the student definitely wants teaching then you do have to offer what’s taught in schools.

If you look at the stats for Oxford MFL: applicants vs successful applicants, you will see around 33% get in for MFL. No one says it’s easy (And I didn’t) but that’s a significantly bigger proportion than for Medicine, PPE and nearly every other subject.

I suspect the universities will set up their own arrangement with partnership universities abroad. The Swiss manage it. It’s not going to be the end of the year abroad and MFL degrees.

No History syllabus is boring. English Language won’t matter but it’s not best prep. You need reading, research and essay writing skills. Oxford highly recommends English Lit for this reason. The best prep for MFL is not another “language”.

If she's interested in Italian from scratch she could look at French/Spanish plus Italian ab initio degrees. (Or any other ab initio language.)

Unlikely Erasmus will exist for UK students sadly. Though there may be other opportunities for year abroad.

Thank you. I've offered to look at some universities 'together' on face time, so we'll see if any offer beginning Italian.
But I'm inclined to agree that carrying on the 2 A level languages makes the most sense.

Oxford is not in the running, but Newcastle has been mentioned, I think by some of the current 6th formers.

I'm not sure I'm really the best person to advise -I just picked my 3 favourite subjects for A level, and my favourite of them for university. I chose my own degree mainly based on liking the look of the city, I didn't have a clue about the course before I started, and I don't know anything about Erasmus or studying at a university abroad.

But I did do French A level, so my opinion is being given a lot of weight! .

I really appreciate the advice from people who have recent experience, and much more knowledge than I do.

Lancaster makes a big deal out of Italian ab initio and is supposed to be v good for languages.

Ours did Italian from scratch, with Spanish built on a higher at IB. She went to Exeter and had great fun.
Our friend’s daughter is two years older and did Italian from scratch with French from A level at Bath.
Exeter have a year in second language with expectation that you’ll boost your first language through holiday work or holidays.
Bath did six months in each country.

Neither’s work is related to their degree but our friends daughter does use her French in Africa where she visits several countries regularly overseeing aid contracts.

Friends daughter did Erasmus in Naples but worked in Evian. Ours spent a year with British Council in Verona.

Doing 3 full languages cuts down study abroad from around 5 months in each plus vacation to a very full schedule. Vacations are useful for work experience. DD felt this was more important than yet another language.

Newcastle doesn’t do Italian. Not many do. I know Sheffield doesn’t. DD applied to Leeds, Manchester, Bristol and Durham as well as Oxford. Bath didn’t offer the same number of modules as the others. It’s a course that’s more linked to business. We also looked at Exeter and UCL.

The universities are getting links with the foreign universities. Year 3 abroad is compulsory for language immersion. DD went to the university of Geneva and then to the university of Bologna. Then worked here in her vacations. I’m not convinced there is any advantage in doing 3 languages and cramming in 3 countries. A good university requires the student to do an academic study in the year abroad and it’s per language. If you look at the year abroad info at each MFL dept you can see where they link with.

Thanks again. I think the (current - following brief flirtation with idea of school C) plan is to stick with school A, try and do teaching-related work experience as the 4th activity, or failing that English AS.

We have both looked at some of the universities mentioned, and at the British Council website about teaching abroad. The allure of Italy as a destination has now been supplanted by the dazzling prospect of teaching French on a Caribbean island .

Don’t rule out a top university for one semester abroad. The French universities can feel a bit large and impersonal according to DDs friends. Often poor halls of residence. Geneva was different altogether. No Brexit issues either. I think Canada might also be possible and DD had a friend that went to Reunion Island. The Caribbean placements might get oversubscribed so don’t bank on that. Often students at the universities find it a bit easier to make friends. The BC can place you in the middle of nowhere!