Should she drop French GCSE?

[Thisismynewname123]

School do 3 year GCSEs. DD is in Y9. French in years 7/8 was very basic, so they are doing foundation French in Y9, moving into GCSE curriculum next year. It's all vocab and verb tests at the moment. She's only just started, but she is struggling. School discourage dropping subjects after the first term. She is a generally high achiever and would hope for at least 7/8s across all subjects with a smattering of 9s if things go well. Is it worth suggesting she drop French now while she should still be able to pick another subject? Or leave her struggling and hope once gets the hang of it that she will improve? I can get her a tutor nearer the time but don't really want to commit now to 3 years of a tutor. She wanted a language to get her IB so that all university channels are open to her. She expects to go the maths/science (medicine if she does well) route long term and that is where her strengths are. I hate to see how stressed she is before every test and not performing at the top where she is in other subjects.

Taking this step by step.

• She wanted a language to get her IB so that all university channels are open to her presumably you mean Ebac? That is a concept not a qualification, and no universities require an MFL GCSE (there is one whose name escapes me that make you do a language in y1 if you don't have a GCSE, but it doesn't prevent entry)
• She's only just started, but she is struggling. School discourage dropping subjects after the first term. She is a generally high achiever and would hope for at least 7/8s across all subjects with a smattering of 9s if things go well. So she has just started and is finding it hard. She is otherwise a high achiever. Perhaps it would be beneficial for her to have to work hard at a subject for a change. If she is bright without anything like dyslexia, there is no reason why with a bit of effort she shouldn't succeed.
• I can get her a tutor nearer the time but don't really want to commit now to 3 years of a tutor. You could get a tutor to get her over the initial hump until she clicks. Just because you get one now doesn't mean you're committed until GCSEs.

In summary. In her case I think she should stick with it, be encouraged to work hard. Realise that everything doesn't always come easy.

@TeenPlusTwenties, appreciate your response. Yes, I meant the Ebacc! . School encourage it for students who are able.

Regarding the tutor, yes I have considered getting one to get her over the hump. I think I worry because she has difficulty hearing (no learning difficulties. Just prone to too many ear infections has led to poor hearing) that this perhaps affects her ability to pick up a language.

She is high achiever but she isn't a genius and certainly works hard for it by putting pressure on herself. Obviously some subjects come more naturally to her than others but she works for every high mark she gets.

Has she tried an app like Duolingo to help her learning?

Also, has she had her hearing checked recently?

Get her to do beginners duolingo via the app. It’s free & build
Ds up knowledge & learning easily on a few mins a day.

I would expect a child to find the step up from KS3 to GCSE difficult, especially when you consider that your DD is starting GCSE concepts in year 9 rather than the traditional year 10.

I also doubt you would be asking whether she should drop Geography just because she found it difficult. There is this weird thought process in UK schooling that it's OK to just give up on languages the moment they start to challenge you.

My answer is no - you shouldn't encourage your daughter to drop French just because there is a steep learning curve. Mastering the basics of grammar makes learning the more complex topics much easier.
Additionally, GCSE language exams are quite easy to 'game' (at least the written parts). If your daughter puts the work in now and is able to use three tenses and a singular conditional she will likely do reasonably well. Those things can be practiced so sufficiently that they come naturally in her work.

The hearing does put a slightly different slant on it.
How is the subject being taught - is it purely in French or English instructions & explanations?

@AuntyPasta yes, her hearing has been checked and is being looked into. She can hear, but it's weak, and it's the listening that she's struggling most. Otherwise I wouldn't even mention her hearing because it doesn't affect her ability in any other subject.

I will find duolingo. Thanks for the suggestion.

@ClaudiaWankleman you're right, I wouldn't. It's because French teaching was so poor in years 7&8 that it feels like they're starting from not a great base. But I get your point

MFL teacher here. I think it would be a great shame for her to drop! Learning a new language is hard and to be honest I find the curricula quite repetitive and badly designed, but it's a great skill and it will help her learn other languages in the future. In most European countries it is mandatory to learn one or two languages, even in scientific sections. I also recommend duolingo for the basics, and maybe watch French films and series with subtitles to help with Listening? French is not the easiest of languages but it does get easier, and she will find it very satisfying to be able to chat with locals if she goes to a Francophone country.

Memrise is good too, but paid for. Has more "native" speakers to listen to. And a different pattern of exercises/mix of grammar.

Once past the absolute basics on Duolinguo there are little listening exercises in the stories tab. Starts with lots of multiple choice to build confidence moving on to speaking and typing independently

I agree with the previous poster who said give the support now so that she doesn't feel like she is slipping behind. But.... do find out how the rest of the class is doing? If they are all just learning the basics of conjugation and being tested again and again until they have a firm grasp before moving on, then this might be a hurdle she and the rest of the class just need to knuckle down and get on with. How is she performing compared to the rest of the class? In languages, the marking can be tough, one lost mark for every mistake, no room for ambiguity. Maybe she just needs to learn how to learn for these tests.

My son has diminished hearing and I think it does impact his ability to learn French but he is a bright child and capable of learning so he has persisted despite a lack of encouragement from his teachers and he is doing pretty well. He does struggle with accuracy of spelling and conjugation but that is not a hearing issue!!

OP do you have Netflix?

Your daughter will be able to watch a variety of programmes in French, with subtitles in English or in French as she prefers. Sometimes watching a programme or film that she has already seen before/ is familiar with can be a great help. Maybe Friends?

I also want to point out that the French version of Our Planet (the Attenborough) is excellent, and the narration is very slow. There is lots of opportunity to think while she listens, and as the narration often describes what you're watching, it can really put the language into context.

Is this coming from you, fearing she will be miserable or not get as high a mark in French as other subjects (that's not a bad thing - a five is respectable), or is she asking to drop it? Some one who is a high achiever generally is because they work very hard, not that things come easily. However I agree that people do have a natural inclination to be better at some subjects than others (math and languages in particular seem to be subjects that some people do just seem to 'get' or not). I'd keep her at it for now - she may not achieve as well as in other subjects, and only you know if that will really disappoint her or that she'd and be proud she stuck at a subject she found particularly challenging.
But if she truly dreads her French classes and is enthusiastic about another subject instead then change.

DD is in her final year of GCSEs and in the past 12 months her grades have improved massively - she had a shaky start with a couple of her subjects, French included. She's currently predicted a 6+ which she's happy with as it's a good pass and she's not planning on taking it at A level.

We had been warned that French is a huge course and needed a lot of engagement outside of lessons - Duolingo is something that DD uses. She's also immersed herself by having a lot of French language things around - she listens to French rock music, has DS games in French, and so on. She speaks French a lot at home (we don't) and so she has to translate for us.

All sounds like we've pressure-cooked her, but it's all been her doing. She does enjoy French though and has been lucky to have good teachers. The change from KS3 to KS4 is challenging, not least because the focus becomes solely on their futures - it's a big thing to take on in Y9.

I'd say give it another half-term, talk to her French teacher, see if there's anything else you can do to support at home and then review.

Good luck.

Does she understand the real basics of grammar, so that she knows what she is learning?

I've worked with children who've been struggling in French because they are having to memorise verb conjugations etc, but no-one has ever really explained to them what it is all about. They got taught phrases, and then later were expected to replace parts of the phrases with other words, but it wasn't clear to some children even where the separate words were, how that translated to written words (so many silent endings, elisions, etc), what needed to be replaced, or why. Some of the French teachers were insistent on not ever translating things to English, but just giving more and more examples, which didn't really clear up the confusion.

So a bit of basic grammar - showing how we don't change the endings very much in English, but do for 3 person sing., or some irregular verbs, and explaining what and why they are having to learn with the different endings.

Or making sure that they understand why they have to learn the gender of the words - it's not just to use the right article in front, but also affects how they might change an adjective to match, or sometimes what form of the noun.

It's important to understand what tenses are and how they differ from each other and why you need different endings - in English we often use auxiliary verbs to show tense, but not always in other languages, where there are more changes to the verb stem (or both). Terms like 'infinitive' are often used in French classes but children may not understand that we have those in English too - it's less obvious, because the verb stem in English is frequently the same as it is in all the other forms, so children don't realise that, e.g., 'to sleep' is actually a phrase that goes together, replaced by a single word in other languages.

Understanding the structure of the language you're studying is useful to - that verbs might come in several categories that each have different sets of endings to do the same thing. I think an overview of that can be useful, so that it doesn't appear that you are just memorising endless random lists of things.

A lot of that sounds really obvious to adults, but there are a surprising number of misunderstandings amongst children about some real basics like that. And some of it needs to be repeated frequently, as they start learning new tenses or structures.

Apps can be good for studying the actual vocabulary - it can also be useful to know word derivations, and finding connections to English or Latin or other languages to help with memory.

Basic French phonics would be another good start. There are so many silent letters, and vowel combinations, but it is quite predictable for reading at least. Harder for listening, as there are a lot of ways to spell a given sound, but if she is aware of many of the more common combinations for reading/spelling, then she might be more aware of them when she is listening. e.g learning what 'au' says, or 'i' . Breaking up some of the vocabulary she is learning into sounds and syllables and looking for the patterns can be valuable right at the start, and might help get over the initial hump.

@Pipandmum this is coming from me. She hasn't suggested dropping it, which is why I was asking opinions before suggesting it. She wanted to do a language for her own benefit, and always knew it would be a challenge as there was no real grounding. I wouldn't say she dreads her French classes, but she does get stressed and anxious over the tests in a way that she doesn't for other subjects.

I think she is waiting to see what target grade she is given following their end of term assessment that they had last week. She thinks she did badly (but I think her friends - all high achieving - also think they did badly) so if she falls in the middle of the class, then she'll be fine with her general work ethic and the pressure she puts on herself. I think there is less than 20 of them taking French in her year group, so the small class will hopefully help as well.

@ClaudiaWankleman she has already been watching TV in French, with English subtitles. She did this all weekend last week. This was her idea, not mine, so she is trying to immerse herself. It must help with her accent, at the very least!

I'll suggest Duolingo, as lots of people have recommended. I've taken on what people have said. She hasn't suggested dropping it, so unless she does, I will just try to help her and take on the suggestions here.

I loved MFL at school and I'm relatively good at learning them (taught myself Italian, and very basic Russian, did A level French and GCSE German and French) but honestly have found them almost useless in real life! I mean, it's nice on holiday, and occasionally someone has asked me to translate French documents at work, but it really hasn't been necessary.

Why slog away at something when you could switch to another subject and flourish?

I don't understand this obsession with languages. They are not necessary. We aren't talking about maths or English here.

If we were talking about violin lessons, everyone would pile on and say "let the poor child quit and focus on things they enjoy and are good at."

If she really hates it and there is a subject she would rather do, let her switch!

She could drop it as it’s not really needed for her future studies or career field she is aiming for. I see no point in her having to stress over a weakness when she could direct that energy towards her strong subjects and so get higher scores in them.

My nephew in the U.K. who is now year 13 dropped Spanish during his GCSEs. He picked up the further maths and Design Technology GCSEs instead of doing a language. So in total he did
English Lang, English Lit, RE, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Maths, Geography, Computer Science, Design Technology and Further Maths.

I remember my sister saying it was a bit of a fight with the school because there is an Ofsted grade based on how many students get the EBacc. But it’s not a qualification and has zero impact on getting into sixth form or university. It’s just an Ofsted grade marker to rate the college like attendance is.

He also wants to go into sciences and is doing Physics, Computer Science, Maths and Further Maths at A level.

You talk about her dropping a subject - what would she do instead? It's not ideal to start a GCSE subject after you have missed a term of work.

MFL is my subject so I would encourage it - if the only issue is that she finds it difficult, remember it is a subject started from scratch in yr 7, unlike many, and so it is a steep learning curve. If she is able she will start to grasp it - and that's a great feeling.

I don't personally think whether you use the GCSE subject in your adult life is necessarily a marker as to whether you should study it or not. Language learning in any case is great for your understanding of your own language.

That's a great post from @Thimbleberries, spot on.

It's really possible for your DD to pick this up. She's bright, so with a combo of DuoLingo and hard work, she'll get there. Learning the verbs and vocab really is just a matter of hard graft, it's the only way to build the foundations of a language.

My DD2 had the same issues as yours with very, very poor French teaching in Yr 9 and in most of Yr10. She dealt with it by doing DuoLingo and working through her book determinedly and quietly at the back of the class while supply teachers and cover staff came and went. It was really poor, the school acknowledged there was a crisis.

Going into Yr11 she got a really excellent teacher and all her hard work just came together - she walked out with an 8. It can be done.

If they've started GCSE in yr 9 then it will be too late to switch to something else as she'll have missed 3 months of that already, hence school being reluctant to allow swaps.

Stick at it, support her and encourage her to work at things and be more resilient and do try not to allow your own experience prejudices make or influence her own experience or enjoyment.

FWIW MFL teachers often have to deal with parents whose views on the subject are at odds with their own children's abilities or enjoyment.

I have a DD who loved languages and did MFL degree. Never uses her a MFLs at work - but so what? She got a brilliant job and she didn’t want a job using the languages. MFL is an academic degree - you don’t spend 4 years chatting in your MFLs. It’s an exploration of cultures and arts and of course it’s valuable!

She should continue in my view. Learning to not be the best is valuable in itself. Learning how to improve is also worthwhile.

Do be aware that there are medical schools out there that expect GCSE learning to be done in 2 years, not 3. They can be choosy.

Dd2 really struggled with French and got a 6 in the GCSE and 8s and 9s for everything else. She's on track for 3 x As at A level and has good uni offers from Russell Group unis so clearly scraping a 6 at gcse is fine!

Most universities don’t look at GCSEs. Medicine is different in some cases. Not that I expect lack of an MFL to make a difference but the 3 years taken to do them might.

I can't see how any medical schools would know that the material has been learned over 3 years rather than 2. If the exams were taken at different times in the three years (eg. some at the end of year 10), then the dates might make that obvious, but not just that the learning was done over 3 years. Most subjects include work or skills from previous years - maths is a 12 year course really!!