Disagreeing with Set Change

[foxesandsquirrels]

DD in Y8 was accidentally put into top set English in Sept. She has SEN and due to the bubbles, they couldn't move her and I was slightly worried about this but she has done amazingly. She is writing so much in her book, reading when she gets home and overall has made the most progress ever in English, mostly thanks to the peer pressure and quiet environment.
Just had a phone call from school saying they will be moving her down to the bottom set at she is struggling in inference exercises and didn't do well on the test (wasn't given extra time and left halfway but that's besides the point, she wouldn't have passed it to top set standards anyway). The reason I have an issue with this is because she is in bottom sets for everything else. I have no problem with this in principle, however, they are so disruptive. DD does not have a day where no one gets sent out, her books look bare in those subjects and its so bad they are splitting some of them up. There is absolutely no classroom management there.
I have been working with DD everyday in those subjects to try and get her to move up sets as it seems it's the only hope.
The teacher said she needs the help of a TA which would be available to her in the bottom set. I explained that I know this but I would prefer that she stayed in a higher set for above mentioned reasons. There is no gain to her having a TA in a class of 30 kids who each need one. I know this as this is the case in all other core subjects.

My question I guess is, am I being out of order? I'm not expecting her to stay in set 1, however great she is doing, I'm aware there are kids who passed high enough to warrant a space there, I just really don't want the bottom set.

Ah I really feel for you op. What a shame for her to be moved out of the top set where she can get on 😥

I taught bottom set French yr 8 one year, and although it was a small class, there were a few who were constantly disruptive. But there were also some kids who wer so lovely, just weaker. There were twins who were so so sweet and wonderful. They couldn't have been in any other set tho. And even there, they both exceeded their targets.

Could you ask if she could at least be moved to a middling set?

I don't think it's your decision to make unfortunately. The school have to weigh up all kids needs and there may be other children waiting to move up a set who make the grade for the top set.

I'd ask about the possibility of a middling set though.

@sionnachRua I'm aware of this and I said in my post that I don't expect her to stay in top set but I don't think it's unreasonable for her to move to a middle one given how well she has done.
Yes they have to weigh up the kids needs, including mine. She's not disruptive, she's exceeding all her targets and doing amazingly well in this class. It's the only class she has made progress in so it's safe to assume she isn't being negatively effected by the smarter kids and they are not being effected by her. There were no sets last year, she did great in science and maths. Now she is in the bottom set these are the only exams she has completely failed.
I am not having her move to a lowest English set too. It'll be disastrous.

Setting by ability only benefits high ability children. I would definitely fight for your daughter.

@mooncakes thanks. I can understand it from the perspective of high ability kids but my kid really isn't slowing them down. They haven't changed anything to suit her and I completely understand that and have no problem with it. We go over what she has learnt and being in that class has massively helped her confidence.
I don't see how it is helpful to stick 30 low ability kids in one class, most of whom probably have undiagnosed Sen, with one teaching assistant and no successful behaviour management and call that 'better provision'. Urgh

I would say secondary school sets can help all DC. For core subjects. Totally depends on quality of teaching though. DD was in bottom set for maths and she did really well. Old money grade B. Her teacher was outstanding. I expected a grade D at best! So don’t write off a set until you know who is teaching. The pace was slower and DD was able to get better one to one teaching and help with those tricky bits. DD was demoralised by being in a set higher and not feeling competent. Being top of the bottom set really helped her self esteem.

@PresentingPercy no offence but did you read my post? I have no problem with low sets. I know all too well how beneficial a lower set can be and how horrid being in a set too high for you is. I explicitly said this in my post and also said how well she is doing in the top set.
I am also well aware how badly managed and taught the lower sets are at her school, she's in them for all her other lessons.

Well complain then! I’m sure you know what’s best and how poor the teachers are. I was just talking generally where a lower set can pay dividends. But you know your school, the quality of teaching and DD best.

Yes they have to weigh up the kids needs, including mine.

I don't disagree but my point is that you are looking at it solely from the perspective of what benefits your child. Which is natural, I wouldn't expect a parent to do any different. However they've to take the needs of every child into account and your daughter matters no more or less than any of the others to them (or so it should be imo). That's why I think they may also have to take other things into account, based on class/year info no parent would be privy to.

I would definitely see if you can get her in a middle set though.

It's unlikely that a bottom set has 30 kids in; most schools will manage to rig the numbers so that it is at least a smaller group.

It may turn out that the bottom set for English has a strong teacher who can manage the class well, so although there will inevitably be some of the same classmates, it might not be as bad as maths/science. It does sound as if the year group has a particularly difficult "bottom end", if they're taking action to split them up.

Your daughter's experience perhaps demonstrates why some schools do not set for English - it means they can split up the difficult kids, and it may be possible to stretch the ablest without "losing" the weaker ones. (The latter is tricky to do in maths, unfortunately.)

@lanthanum they have already added her to the class on teams and it is a class of 30 kids in the chat. All of whom are already in her other lowest set classes and it is absolute carnage.

@sionnachrua oh yes I agree. That's exactly why I made this post. Sometimes through anger we can act irrationally and I don't want to be an asshole to an overstretched school.
I will be requesting she goes into a middle set.

[quote foxesandsquirrels]@sionnachrua oh yes I agree. That's exactly why I made this post. Sometimes through anger we can act irrationally and I don't want to be an asshole to an overstretched school.
I will be requesting she goes into a middle set.[/quote]
Yes given that she's getting on well (more or less) in a top set it seems a shame to not even try her in a middle set. Hopefully school can work something out.

@SionnachRua yes I hope so. Thanks for your advice. The consensus seems to be to ask to be placed in middle. Let's hope it can happen.

Hold firm on this OP. Don't back down. Ask for a meeting (zoom presumably) with her current English teacher and the Head of English. The fact you are asking for Head of English to attend will let them know that you are serious.

Say that a middle set is fine. But not bottom. Simply. No.

Plus, if she's due a TA then her needs qualify for a TA whatever set she's in. So, that argument re only a TA in bottom set is basically bullshit, isn't it?

'Hope I can happen'. No, 'make it happen'.
Plus, if they don't agree, verbally, put it all in an email. They hate emails. It means traceability, a paper trail!

Ultimately parents don't have the right to refuse a set change.

30 kids in the bottom set is too many though, and I can see why you are concerned if behaviour is poor.

I would ask for a meeting and ask if she can at least try a middle set, but unfortunately you cannot insist on this.

If she is moved down to the bottom set, then I would be consistently speaking to the school about her progress and so on.

However, it is worth thinking about this long term - it's likely she will be with some of these students throughout her school career. If they are hard to manage in Y8, they will be even harder to deal with in Y9 and 10.

Other schools manage bottom sets better than this, or have mixed ability for English. I know it sounds drastic but it might be worth a move to another school where bottom sets are better supported?

For example, I teach a low set for y8 science. There are

I’d argue hard in your situation to make it happen but realistically actually you can’t make it happen, it’s going to be up to the school.What have you got to loose though?

I’ve also got a Year 8, they have four streams for English, Maths and Science at her State. I would have exactly the same concerns you have about your DD being written off in a bottom set with less engagement and poorer behaviour. I’d put together as much as I could to evidence her improvement before the meeting. However, I do agree with PPs who have said that a great teacher in a bottom set might make the world of difference. Will DD be with the same English teacher as last year and do you know any of the parents with DC in the bottom set you could talk too if not?

If ultimately they say no which realistically they might, I think personally I’d look at either two options - private back up tutoring or if possible moving her to another school with mixed ability classes (if one exists with a space in your area!). It sounds like you are doing a lot of work with her at home - if you believe you have the capacity and ability to keep on with that then that of course is another option.

Good luck & give it your best shot!

It's obviously up to the school but I would send an e-mail making a case for the middle set and explaining why you think your daughter would make the best progress in that set, why she wouldn't make progress in lower set and any evidence you have to support this e.g. she has made more progress in top set as its quiet and children are more motivated.

I recently got my daughter moved up a set in English to top set like this, they then called me and discussed it, had to wait a few weeks due to covid but she's moved up and results have improved and its a lot better. I had to convince them she would benefit more than any other child but I knew she was 1 of 3 at the very top of set below and some in the higher set with lower scores. It also depends if there's a place as otherwise another child moves down - in DDs case there was a space.

I also said I would help and support her to stay in that set and asked what resources to use. If you can show you are willing to help keep her there that may help as well.

@oblomov20 I really don't want to be that parent. They are normally a really good school, I think Covid is making things very difficult. I don't think it would be fair to go all guns blazing on them now. They are due to call me today. So I'll see what they say.
@sansasnark This is difficult to answer as all the local schools are teaching in tutor groups due to covid and we have no idea how long for, this is causing it's on problems that I don't really want to join in to. She has an EHCP so I can theoretically move her anywhere but I'm not sure how worth it is when all the local schools start GCSEs next year and classes are then smaller. I am worried though about this set of kids and what they will be like next year. One of them was permanently excluded a couple of weeks ago to give you an idea of behaviour.
I think you have a good point re consistently talking to them about progress if she is in the bottom set.
@SJaneS49 This is the same set up as DD. 4 sets. I tutor other kids and have no problem doing that with DD but I am already doing that in maths and science everyday and I think adding English to that will be borderline abuse. I can't have her practically being homeschooled when she gets home. She needs to be in a class where she is learning.
Last year she was in a low set with 8 kids and a teaching assistant. They had some difficult kids but the teacher was wonderful and she made lots of progress. They are with the y11s this year, as are all the other good teachers. The poor NQTs seem to have the KS3.
@silkiecat they're calling me today so I will be doing that. Depending on what happens after, I will email them explaining my concerns, which I already did and they kindly offered to look into another solution. When they called originally it was a very rushed oh this is just to let you know. I don't think they were expecting me to disagree and go be fair to them, they have been looking for alternatives. What those are I'll find out today.
I'm really happy for your daughter. I think the top set just illustrates how great it is when behaviour is good.

She is going into set 3/4 . I'm really happy and it'll be much better than the bottom.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound 'all guns blazing'. I meant more 'polite but firm'.

Anyway, I'm very pleased you have got the result you wanted.

I think if you have a child with SEN then unfortunately you do have to 'be that parent'. You're far more likely to have the best understanding of how your child works, learns and is progressing.

You have to advocate for your child rather than relying on the system to work, as sadly the system is often underfunded and overworked.

@LuubyLuu You are 100% correct and I have had to be that parent for much of primary school, to the point where I took complaints to the governing body and currently have a complaint going through the local authority. I sometimes overreact to things exactly because of what you mentioned, but I've learnt to breathe and try to get a different perspective.
The current school has been amazing and everything we could've hoped for, but it is far from perfect.

Well done on getting set changed and hope it helps.

I've got a DS with SN so am used to a lot of conversations with school and a lot of teaching him myself. I know you said you don't want to do English (I've said the same myself though then backed down!) but English and Maths are the ones you most need a pass in so I'ld maybe reduce the science and do some English or at least think about it for the future. My DS used to find the workbooks you get easier (he used Goldstar in primary but any of them) than the work from school - it broke questions down more so you had to write a sentence rather than a paragraph.

My DD is older and now y10 but I found it useful reading the exam papers and example answers and how graded - probably a long way off from y8 but then I had a clue what I was aiming for.