A level choices: Further Maths vs Chemistry / Music vs Language

[CharlesAnton]

DS likes to do maths for sure, then probably music, then...chemistry or further maths. So maths/chemistry/music or maths/further maths/music, which combination would you say better or recommended? I know it all depends on what he would like to do after a levels but he isn't sure yet so currently he's just looking at the subjects he is good at and would enjoy.

He's also strong at language so he could do it instead of music. However, currently he thinks he would enjoy music more.

Any advice please?

I did music and French alevel years ago and ended up doing joint honours at uni. Both were pretty hardcore for different reasons. Out of the two I’d do languages which is more useful generally. There will be plenty of opportunity to get involved in music at most unis even if you don’t study it or do it at a level- there were plenty of medics in our uni symphony orchestra which was probably the highlight of my musical career!

Music at uni was full of aspiring Pros-
Almost every single one of them ended up in teaching/freelancing and has been hit really hard this year. Future for musicians to make an income is bleak. But plenty of fun making music to be had (I hope). MFL on the other hand will be more in demand and more obviously useful.

I really appreciate all the advice. Thank you so much.

I would recommend that he goes with what he's keen on and then figures out the next bit later. Yes, some doors will be closed as a result of whatever he chooses but that's ok, there are other doors!

This really touched me. It would be great if he knew what he wanted already and an elaborate life map in his hand accordingly. But I'm afraid it's not the case and it's ok...

Frazzled, would you mind explaining me a little more about why you think MFL is in demand and useful? I can only think of a teacher, like similar to music (apologies for my ignorance!).

clary, he's in a very fortunate position where all the areas required to achieve a good grade in music a-level is being well looked after. He'd done and dusted grade 8 before secondary school so the practical side is also on the right track. However, considering music as a career option is a different story as you pointed.

Most engineering degrees require maths and physics. Not maths and chemistry. That’s why I specifically mentioned Chemical Engineering. It’s the only one that would specify chemistry - that I know of. Electronics, electrical, Civil, mechanical, aeronautical, automotive prefer physics for obvious reasons. So if he thinks Engineering might be something he could do, the Council of Engineering institutions is a good place to start doing a bit of research. There are other forms of engineering I’ve left out.

This in no way is saying chemistry isn’t a worthy subject but it’s narrow in terms of engineering degrees.

It is quite annoying to find you should have done a particular A level to get on a course but you dropped it. Some universities do foundation years to help out with this. However MEng courses are 4 years so it can be an expensive mistake. Therefore, for Engineering, Physics keeps more doors open.

I think most music grads want to stay in music and it’s badly paid. As he’s gifted in this, does he see it as a career or a hobby? Would he teach it? There is no reason why he cannot keep music as a hobby and study, say, law. Many lawyers are multi talented!

My DD is a MFL grad and is a barrister. MFL grads are not in demand for their MFL skills. As a country we don’t care about MFL skills. None of her university MFL friends have been in demand and she easily is the highest paid. They are a pretty intelligent bunch though and have a variety of jobs. But nothing other grads cannot do. Firms employ staff from other countries so the MFL grads are not particularly sought after. However some MFL grads teach (sought after) and others work abroad. There are opportunities in business for engineers with MFL expertise. So a year abroad is never wasted.

It sounds as though you already know this but academic music requires an enthusiasm and ability for analysis of music plus composing. If that is what he loves and he is still considering university music degree then he should do music A level. MFLs, he could pick-up as optional modules during his degree and even do a year abroad for most type of degrees without requiring the A level.

Maths further maths and chemistry seems a good combination- especially as you say chemistry is his all time favourite subject.
Ime MFL is hard to get a top grade in.
Music sounds like it could be a hobby?
I suggest to students to start backwards. Research what uni degrees there are if he doesn't have a particular career in mind (that’s not a big problem). But it is worthwhile to check out uni websites and ucas website- just to see the range of degrees there are.

If I ask him to follow his heart he would probably pick maths, chemistry and music. If I tell him he could pick four, then he would add further maths or a language.

If I ask him to listen to his head and pick three, then he would probably say maths, further maths and chemistry or possibly maths, chemistry and physics plus further maths if he can do four.

He likes languages but one (probably big) reason why he considers a language is because he's bilingual so it's relatively an easier subject for him to achieve a good grade. Although he's considering doing his third language instead of the one he's already fluent so it'll still be quite challenging.

Music can definitely be kept as a good hobby. And so is a language...

Indeed, it's a good idea to start backwards. We'll have a look at uni websites as well as the council of engineering institutions this weekend. Thank you so much for all the great advice.

Here on the Wirral schools definitely seem to see Further Maths as the 4th subject. One of the grammar schools has combined it with Maths, so it's seen as 3 A Levels , as they don't like to say those doing further maths are taking 4, but equally wouldn't accept Maths, FM and another as 3 either.

We found this link really helpful. You click on what subjects you want to take and it will give you an idea of what degrees you could study.

www.informedchoices.ac.uk/subjects

We're in the process of interviewing at sixth forms. Most require you take three, the only fourth possible being further math or foreign language if that's your native language for example.
It's a shame it has to be reduced to three choices. My daughter just said she would like to take three and then go back and take two more - or do five less intensely. Not an IB as you can't just pick four or five random subjects. I grew up in the US and you don't specialise - you still take a broad range of subjects til the end, which keeps options open.
My daughter has settled on art, history and biology. The last purely because she's interested in it.
You can over think it, and nothing is set in stone. My sister did an undergraduate creative writing degree at a top university. She's now a medical doctor.

If you want to do English and drama at uni, you need those two at A level.

Not at Exeter, Bristol or Birmingham, at least, who only want English Lit. / Lit and Lang.. Does every school actually offer Drama at A level?

If he’s fluent in a MFL then it’s worth taking for an easy top grade perhaps.

Another option (sorry) could be an EPQ . He can choose a topic that interests him, great first research skills and planning. It does carry Ucas points. Done unis will offer a lower grade offer of an A is achieved at EPQ. You can usually take the EPQ as a 4th as it’s only 1 year in duration.

“Some unis will offer ..”

@MarchingFrogs

If you want to do English and drama at uni, you need those two at A level.

Not at Exeter, Bristol or Birmingham, at least, who only want English Lit. / Lit and Lang.. Does every school actually offer Drama at A level?

Ah ok, it was an example! I was just looking at Warwick as a reasonable place to go...obviously unis will vary. My point stands tho, if you did biology physics and chemistry you'd not get in to do English or drama. Some doors will close, but that's fine

If I ask him to follow his heart he would probably pick maths, chemistry and music. If I tell him he could pick four, then he would add further maths or a language.

If I ask him to listen to his head and pick three, then he would probably say maths, further maths and chemistry or possibly maths, chemistry and physics plus further maths if he can do four.

So his head and heart agree on chemistry and maths. They (with good grades) and any 3rd subject would be enough to get on many good chemistry, biochemistry and maths courses, but not the majority of engineering. I'm a chemist; I did chemistry, physics, and double maths - neither the physics nor the extra maths were essential, though both were useful.

Doing fm as one of only 3 subjects is risky, unless it's maths, physics and FM and you're 100% sure you want to go on to maths, physics,engineering or computer science.

Sometimes we overcomplicate things... if he really loves chemistry then he doesn't need to consider every other possibility.

Not sure if this has been mentioned re MFL, but there are quite a lot of STEM courses where there's a 'with ' option or at least optional MFL modules - which only require a GCSE (and the options may not even require that). So not doing a language at A level doesn't shut all doors on that front.

The reason it’s hard to get a high grade in MFL is because of all the native speakers taking them. It harms the prospects of the non native speakers, and in your DS’s situation, it’s not necessary to do that. He’s got so many other options and should look to challenge himself. If he wants a year abroad using his second language, he’s obviously in a great position to do it.

Yes, that’s been mentioned Errol. A bilingual native speaker won’t need to worry about a gcse though. My DDs former boyfriend went to a Grand Ecole for Y3 of his MEng degree. Post French Gcse and extra lessons at university. It was bloody hard work! Engineering degrees are full on anyway and then there’s the extra work of the MFL. DD helped with his MFL but don’t underestimate the intellect and ability you need to succeed at top university abroad where everything is in a language you’ve rushed to get up to speed in.

Re my earlier post obviously Brexit will make it more difficult but to get any chance of working in another country MFL will give you a huge advantage (and not necessarily the language of that country). In this country MFL teachers are in demand but admittedly languages don’t seem anywhere near as important as english, maths and science.
That all said you since said he is bilingual so he has that advantage already. In which case I’d pick the one he enjoys more. Sounds like he has great performance standard in music which is a good start in music but there’s far more to it. When I did it my performance element was 40% (two instruments) but that’s probably changed now. I found the history and theory components very difficult.

The only other thing to consider is if he does MFL he will have a greater chance of doing a year abroad as part of his degree (but if bilingual it poss won’t make a difference). If these things will still be allowed under brexit I couldn’t emphasise enough how good that is (for broadening one’s horizons generally). Overall though it sounds like he’s a high achiever and will do well.

Ps a good friend did maths, fm, chemistry and music a level. Good choices for her (extremely academic) - Did music at uni but has since had very successful career in entirely unrelated field.

PresentingPercy ... "Music is vital for a music degree"
... oh no it isn't! Grade 8 theory + diploma, or possibly less, are fine for anywhere decent. Personal experience!

Heifer, thank you for the link. I had a quick look and was surprised that there seemed to be a lot more choices and flexibility than I thought. I checked the available degrees with a couple of different combination of a-levels and also checked the requirements of some random universities listed on the website for a few degrees. Admittedly they are all highly competitive universities so even when they display some sort of flexibility and understanding on the website, in reality, the successful rate for those who have't ticked preferable a-levels could be very low though. But it's definitely nicer than being completely crossed out.

I am fine with some doors closing as I can think of many subjects that won't be important to DS. I don't really think he would do history, English, drama, etc. However, closing some doors in the area where DS might be interested does concern me. I am not 100% sure if he wants to go on to maths, physics, engineering or computer science, but they are the areas where I could imagine he would be attracted to and considered. But I agree sometimes we overcomplicate things. I definitely do, especially when it comes to DS's stuff, because I'm not very certain how the system works and I have a fear of my ignorance guiding him wrongly. I am a lot more bold for my own planning.

Pipandmum, DS is considering to do his third language, not the one he's fluent, exactly for the reason what you mentioned. He started learning the third language in Y7 and it's completely different from the languages he's fluent so it is challenging enough. However, as a bilingual, he tends to pick a new language fairly quickly so he has an advantage over other non-native speakers.

But I've started thinking MFL will be an unlikely choice for his a-level. There is a qualification outside a-level available so if he wants he can do that instead.

Perhaps consider
Maths chemistry then either fm or music offering routes into maths, chemical engineering, materials technology, chemistry, music, economics

Maths chemistry physics- offering routes into chemistry, chemical engineering, physics, materials tech, economics,

Not a comprehensive list by any means. But not a lot in it really. Physics/ engineering routes or music.

Seems that the core for your son is maths and chemistry. Start the research there. Hopefully the third will fall into place after that. In terms of guiding him - without pressure suggest he explores the possibilities available at uni. What is he drawn to?

Also many degrees have flexible subject entry Eg law accounts psychology business - depends on the uni

Also, as someone has already said, many careers don't need specific A Levels or even degrees - accountancy, law, retail management, policing etc etc. So even if he did a Music degree, he wouldn't be committing himself to a career in music.

When dd was choosing her subjects, she had a possible degree in mind - Psychology - so we made sure that we didn't rule that out by her A Level choices. For her other two subjects, she chose her favourites, which also happened to two of her best-performing subjects too. She's finding A Levels hard, but is enjoying all the subjects she chose. Life would be pretty miserable if they were both hard and boring!

As others have said, choosing 3 subjects automatically closes doors, and that can be helpful. Unlimited choice in life is never useful! So if he doesn't have a burning desire to be anything at this point, let him choose his favourite subjects. This will then help him narrow down degree and career choice at the next stages.

I would reject languages straight off because it's not a level playing field. How can you compete against someone who was born in France? Or whose Mother is French? Or has a holiday home in France where they spend every holiday. Having said that, it was my French A Level (grade D) that got me my 1st job.

Maths-Further Maths-Music are a bit of a theoretical collection. But if he loves Music and Maths, he should do them. So I would go Maths-Chemistry-Music.

Be aware, though he wants to do Engineering at a top university, he really needs to do Further Maths. (We found this out after the event. He's doing Further Maths AS now)

As a music teacher, I can tell you that performing is up to 35% of the A level. The board I teach allows you to choose whether you specialise more in performing or composing. However, the other of the 2 is still worth 25%. 40% is listening. There is A LOT of content. It is a big step up from GCSE. Yes, there are essays to write. The performance is not marked like a graded exam and there are many examples on teacher forums to the effect of "my grade 8 distinction pianist only got a C for their performance" because the mark schemes differ from the graded exams. So do your research - there is variation between exam boards too.

Last year, most of our A level group were scientists. We had more than half the group taking Maths and Physics alongside Music and one also taking Further Maths - they are now studying Engineering at Cambridge. Some are studying sound engineering/acoustics.

As others have said, it is possible to get onto a music degree with grade 8 practical and grade 7 or 8 theory, but they tend to be more practical courses/conservatoires than more academic degrees now, unless your school does not offer Music, so it is contextualised.