Glyn or Sutton Grammar??

[Blueskiessunshine]

Hi all,
My son is in Y4 and isn't due to start secondary yet but I am already trying to figure out what his school choices will be. We live in Epsom. He excels at English and maths. He plays rugby but he isn't passionate about it and I wouldn't say he is particularly sporty. He loves computers and coding.
We are close enough to get a place at Glyn school, but if he keeps going the way he is, then Sutton Grammar may be an option.
I need to know whether to start his tutoring now for the 11+ to push for SGS, or whether to let life take it's own course, in which case Glyn or still maybe SGS could be the options.
Can anyone comment on how SGS and Glyn compare? I'm trying to figure out which school would be the best fit for him. I know it's early days but I like to be prepared!
Also, do many kids travel to SGS from Epsom?
Thank you!

Glyn is a very successful comp but being a non-selective school, it doesn’t really compare academically to Sutton Grammar. The latter is more in the realm of 85% grades 7-9 (old A-A*) at GCSE with a number of students securing Oxbridge places. In terms of admissions, they reserve the majority places for local children but that covers not just Sutton but also the KT17 postcode making it much easier to get in if that’s where you live. The out-of-catchment boys come from a range of places as the school easily accessible from a lot of places.
Given that your son is great at English and Maths + loves coding, a grammar school might suit him very well.

You could also consider Wallington County Grammar as that would be an easy commute from Epsom. Wilson’s might be a bit a much.

Thank you so much for your quick reply! My concerns about grammars is the strong pressure to achieve - I have heard stories of children ending up with all types of mental traumas because of the stress. Do you know if SGS push really hard? I want my son to do well in life but above all I want him to be happy!

I’ve worked in a lot of schools including grammars and would say that a child that suffers from low self-esteem and is prone to anxiety might find grammars quite pressured. The work is fast-paced and everyone is clever so it’s a shock to the system coming from being one of the cleverest kids in primary. However, kids with reasonable self-esteem and love of learning do thrive in grammars. It just takes a particular type of child, eg if you go to Sutton High St at lunchtime, you’ll overhear SGS boys getting really animated in their discussions of physics, computers or engineering lol It does sound like that sort of vibe would suit your son, though.

My DS is at Wilson's and his best friend from Primary is at SGS. Both are decent journeys from Epsom if you live near the train station. We are in Cheam.

I always maintained that if I wasn't absolutely sure that DS was a good fit for the Sutton grammars (which are among the highest performing grammars in the country), I would not put him through the prep. I didn't like the thought of him only just getting in and going from being a high achiever in primary to being at the lower end and struggling with confidence. But he wanted it for himself, enjoyed the prep (just at home with me), did incredibly well and feels he fits in far more than he ever did at primary school, despite being happy there. Likewise, his friend, according to his mum, comes home from SGS so animated and inspired now compared to Primary school.

If I were you, I'd prep (but from beginning of yr 5 not 4, if he's a strong candidate), see how it goes and big up Glyn School in the meantime. It's great to have that as a strong backup - takes the pressure off.

As an aside, I'm not sure whether SGS or Wilson's have rugby teams. Wally Boys does. We went for Wilson's for a few reasons, including the music and chess, but we also know teachers there, who could verify how fantastic and nurturing the school is. Only good things heard about SGS so far too.

Thank you, this is really useful! I did think it was a bit early to start tutoring but was being told otherwise so went with it and found him a tutor. But I might put it on hold for a year. My husband is very keen that we push him but I just want to find the best fit for him.

I suppose for me I don't know how I will know whether he is a good fit for a grammar school! I can imagine he will want to go where his friends are going, but that could change in a couple of years I suppose!

To be upfront with you, lots of people do tutor from Year 4. But I think it is unnecessary if they are a child that is genuinely, without a doubt, a good fit for a super-selective. The tests do cover Year 6 content and exam practise is important (mainly familiarisation and speed) but it isn't beneficial to cover that until they have finished the year 4 curriculum anyway. It is just that it is so super-competitive that people who are really set on the schools want to get an early advantage; our experience has been that children who have been tutored from Year 4 do not do better than those who start in Year 5, if they are doing well at school.

My DD is Year 5 so I have just started with her for Nonsuch

If he's excelling in Maths and English, enjoys learning, has interests like coding, and doesn't shy away from a competitive and challenging environment, he is likely to fit in at grammar school. And if you think he'll be happy at your good local comp too then that's a comfortable way to head into it all. We have a local comp that is technically 'outstanding' but there's a large part of its intake (many of which my DS went to Primary school with) that my DS is pleased to not have 'disrupting' what he perceives school should be. I don't know enough about Glyn to know whether it has the same issues though. From the little I do know, I think it has a good reputation for behaviour.

I agree that you don’t need to tutor from very early on. A child that has no gaps only needs to get comfortable with the right sort of questions and working at speed. A year is plenty to do that in. Keeping up the practice in the summer before the exams really makes a difference.

If your son is able and a bit geeky, then he’ll fit in at a grammar well.

TeddyDidIt, I’ve worked in every secondary school across Cheam, Sutton and Carshalton and the kids are really lovely and well behaved in all :) I’ve never worked at Glyn but would really expect it to be lovely behaviour-wise and in other ways (no reason to expect otherwise).

@JoJoSM2 Yes, I agree all the schools seem to have a good reputation onthe whole and it was still a good backup. I have to admit it was more a combination of the behaviour of some at the primary school and the behaviour of a minority outside of the high school, rather than direct experience of the school, that put me off our local comp. I definitely wanted him to be in an environment where succeeding is seen by all as a positive thing and had worries about him being bullied for his very mature and yet very sweet and not at all streetwise nature! Many children would cope fine in that environment though.

Your comments are all so helpful and reassuring! Our son is definately academically able and 'geeky', so it's nice to know that he might fit in well at a grammar. And as far as I know Glyn is a very good school, quite strict, so it's good to have a good comp on the doorstep. I've had a good chat with my husband about it and we've decided not to even think about the 11+ and schools for now, but instead encourage his love of maths, numbers and coding, and see where things are in a year when he starts year 5.

If you are serious about entering your DS for SGS then I'm afraid I would start tutoring from year 4 or you may well find all the local tutors experienced in preparing children for the 11+ are already booked up.

My son had an hour's tuition in Maths and an hour's tuition in English every week starting part way through year 4. We were on a waiting list for about six months for the English tutor and the Maths tutor was only able to offer us one free slot in her timetable which we snapped up. It's true we could have opted for less experienced tutors but my DS didn't need help with the subjects so much as experience of what the selective entry tests would require of him and plenty of practice.

It might seem insane to tutor a child who is already academically able, but so many places at the Sutton super-selectives are open to out of borough children that the competition comes from a very wide area indeed and the vast majority are tutored to the hilt. Most parents feel they have no choice but to tutor to achieve a level playing field.

For the right boy they are marvellous schools. My DS is at WCGS and is very happy, has made friends and comes home fizzing with enthusiasm about what he's been doing and learning. But he has to work in a way he never had to before when he was one of the brightest in his old class, rather than just one of many academically able boys. And there is an enormous amount of homework.

It sounds like your DS stands a very good chance of SGS and he is very lucky that you just want to find the best fit for him. Hopefully, you'll get the chance to go to the Open Days this year to get a feel for all the possible schools.

We always stressed to our DS that despite all the work and preparation, a little bit of luck was needed as well, and that plenty of very bright children didn't get into the grammar schools because the test is really just a snapshot of a child's performance on a particular day. And we always tried to sound positive about the possible alternatives - and there was much to be positive about even though we felt that, for him, they would not be such a good fit.

Good luck, OP.

DS2 is at SGS and loves it. Afaik he’s never played rugby, football is the thing there with an active Saturday football club. There’s also
a swimming pool on site which is a bonus. He was always very able and a teacher spotted he could have a chance with the grammars. I started prepping him half way through year 4. A private tutor was out as I wasn’t on the inside track with the mums who knew the tutors. This was as close to Omerta as south west London gets. Anyway we did lots of reading together including stuff like Agatha Christie to stretch his vocabulary. A lovely friend who was tutoring her daughter for nonsuch did Maths with him. As the English paper is reputedly harder for boys than girls I concentrated on lots of enrichment in terms of conversation, newspapers, visits to galleries etc and I think that wider approach is also helpful. Look at the 11plus forum for good advice on revision materials. Good luck.

@Blueskiessunshine my ds goes to SGS. The pastoral care is lovely- the really do care about the child....the teachers are amazing and very inspiring.

I would say the school is known for its sciences and the teachers teach it well. They are tested regularly but ds seems to be okay.

They focus on football rather than rugby and have a variety of sports. The fields are not on the grounds, 10-15 mins journey which is fine.

It is a lovely school, there is no harm in prepping him and see where it leads him. If you want to get a tutor, I would start in Year 5 but start looking in Year 4 for the right one.

Good luck in your decision making

Thank you all so much for your helpful comments

With regard to looking at any non selective school in comparison with a fully selective school, it is always worth looking at how those with the various levels of prior attainment fare at GCSE, rather than just saying, 'its results at the top end of the output spectrum aren't as good as the school where no pupils at all from the lowest tier entered the school in that year'.
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136534/glyn-school/secondary/results-by-pupil-characteristics?accordionstate=0|1|2|3|4

Although for a non- academically selective school, Glyn seems to have a very low level of low prior attainment itself.

This is very interesting reading! I didn't know such information was available. I'll be having a good read through and comparing school data. Glyn is in an affluent area, which the dats seems to reflect. Thank you!

I believe Glyn used to be a boys' grammar school too. I had a boss who talked about it as her sons went there.

I know that a test had to be passed to get a place there so it does sound like an ex-grammar.

My son is starting in Sutton Grammar and we live in Epsom, Glyn on doorstep. I found it difficult to decide between too but he was exceeding at school so we gave it a go! Tutor from Y4 I’m afraid just so he start learning systematically and he isn’t overwhelmed in the last few months. Lots of reading and past papers. Competition is fierce as children come from all over London. I’ve never stopped him from playing! He does rugby, competitive swimming, scouts, gymnastics, coding,football! Very sporty! Glyn is where all his friends are going but I wanted him to expand his horizons! Good luck..pm me if you need help!

Ignore that poster OP. They are posting links on old threads.

@Drob78 it's great to hear your feedback. It sounds like you were in the same predicament as we will be! It will be good to be able to visit SGS and Glyn in person and get a feel for them. It sounds like a big challenge will be having to list schools before the SGS second round test results would come back... but that's something I'm not going to think about just yet

@Drob78 hi there - is it ok if I pm you about SGS?