A level maths - advice needed please

[KittyMcKitty]

My youngest dc is needing to start deciding on A level options - obviously we will be speaking to her teachers in detail but would like to ask the collective MN opinion (especially any maths teachers).

Whilst nothing in this world is certain she is predicted 8’s and 9’s at GCSE - her sciences are particularly strong.

She wants to study Biology / Biochemistry / Biomedical Science at university and has aspirations to apply to Oxford.

She will definitely do Biology and Chemistry a A level but the dilemma is should she also do maths? She is not a natural mathematician and it has been a slightly bumpy road - he main problem being lack of confidence (it’s a grammar school - there are loads of v gifted mathematicians and she has at times felt rubbish in comparison. She is at the top of set 3 out of 5 - could have moved to set 2 but didn’t want pressure and it would have meant doing Further Matgs). She got a lowish 8 in the most recent past paper done in class. I would say she’s probably most likely to get an 8.

So my question is would Chemistry be v hard without A level maths? Is it possible she could get a good enough A level grade or would she be better off with a subject she would enjoy more? At the moment that other subject would be probably Drama or Psychology. Studying drama would not exclude her from any of the universities she's looked at (her school also has a track record of people getting accepted onto similar courses with drama / dance as 3rd A level).

Sorry that was long! TL:DR Should she do A level maths or would it be better to do something else?

She will need Maths for her degree, so not taking it at A levels will put her on disadvantage later on.

The holy trinity of Maths, Biology and Chemistry cannot be beat for what she is hoping to achieve.

My daughter is a fourth-year medical student (not at Oxford).

She only took AS maths. Her A levels were Biology, Chemistry and Drama. Her school hadn't had anyone doing that combination before but worked it out for her. She didn't take triple science at GCSE, either, just double.

I think unversitites are more flexible than we think. I didn't know what to think and was worried she might be missing some mathematical skill that others would have. If that's the case then it hasn't shown itself as a problem so far.

@Abraid2 thank you and congratulations to your daughter. It’s really good to hear her experience.

Thank you and good luck to yours!

DS did A level biology, chemistry and geology, he now has a degree and a masters in biology. He hated maths!

I don't agree, from personal experience, that you need maths A level for a biological sciences degree and in terms of applications, a weak maths grade will be less use than a strong psychology grade. Biology, chemistry and psychology sit well together for the degrees you mentioned and also for neuroscience etc. Not sure about drama. I would definitely advise doing the one your dc likes best and can get the best grade in. Good luck!

Thank you that’s really encouraging. She doesn’t like maths so it does seem sensible to look at other choices

My DD was in a similar situation two years ago. She decided to take English Lit along with Biology and Chemistry. She reckoned it was better for her to have good predicted grades (English Lit is an A*) than take Maths which, while it would be useful, would be more of a struggle. She got an 8 in her Maths GCSE but was not a natural mathematician.

She’s had no problems with the Maths content in either Chemistry or Biology and is now in the process of applying for Biochemistry courses at uni.

Having said all that though she has not applied to Oxford; they do say that although Maths A level is not essential it will make your application more competitive.

Look at the university requirements for the courses she is interested in.

Core Maths is a good option if she doesn't want to take A-level but does want to do sciences, it's designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels (if the school offers it).

She needs to remember that if she were in another school she would actually consider herself pretty shit-hot at maths to be getting an 8 on past papers at this point in the year.

2 out of 3 of mine are/have done maths A-level. It is tough. You do need to like it.

Not convinced she would need it for biological sciences. Requirements are all on the uni websites.

My biosciences dc didn't do Maths A level and had to work quite hard at uni to catch up. That said she managed it, and is now doing a stem Masters and helps her (physics ungrad ) sibling with stats.

Being brutal, her chance of getting into Oxford is rather less than her chance of not getting into Oxford, just looking at it numbers-wise.

So if all of the other universities that she is interested in are happy that (although there are almost certainly aspects of what she wants to study that would be easier if she had) having done maths A level is not a prerequisite, then it would be daft to fixate on the requirements for the place she is least likely to get onto, at the expense of 1) enjoying all the subjects she studies for the next 2 years and 2) getting 3 good grades rather than 2 and a 'possibly not and therefore possibly 3) reducing her chance of getting an offer from, or meeting said offer, from the other 4.

Our eldest studied Biochemistry (at Birmingham). I can't remember whether Maths was a requirement, but he did do Maths, because he was both good at it and enjoyed it. Perhaps it's just me, but I can't help thinking that 'Entry requirements should mean just that - We can't teach this course effectively to students without this prior knowledge / skill set. Anything else, desirable but not essential, fine. But apart from that, not relevant.

I think you can lose perspective in grammar schools.

My DS1, at a comp, got mainly 7s and was considered “high achiever” and being put on a special programme to support him going to a good Uni.

On MN, and in grammer school circles (ie your life OP ) you can believe 8s and 9s are needed.

But mostly they are not. If she gets an 8 for maths now, she’ll do well at A levels.

Main thing is she does subjects she enjoys. Maybe that’s not maths... and maybe drama is not that useful for an academic uni subject, so maybe psychology is the best option here?

Thanks everyone. She doesn’t need it it was more would Chemistry be a struggle without it so it’s good to hear positives. For Oxford you don’t have to do the Bmat for Biology or Biochemistry but do for Biomedical Sciences and I imagine that would be a struggle without maths.

Nobel thank you and yes really good points and this is definitely the big downside of grammar schools! She will stay where she is for A level and tgey don’t offer Core Maths - just the standard Maths / Further Maths options unfortunately.

She doesn’t like maths so it does seem that it wouldn’t be the best option and I do feel she would get a much better grade in Psychology, Drama or English so that is probably the way to go.

@MarchingFrogs agree re Oxford - they don’t ask for Maths just 2 sciences.

@Pikachubaby yes Grammar Schools have many downsides - we live in Bucks - 100% selective with no comprehensive schools (all children are automatically entered for the 11+).

Do they offer AS maths? Although she would then start off doing four she would soon see which she preferred. Psychology will have maths (well statistics and research methods) in it as well as Biology and Chemistry having maths. She might be happier with Drama or English as her third subject.

Honestly don't consider maths A level if she doesn't like maths.

The Maths elements of Psychology are basic and fairly minimal (I have a year 13 doing psychology) so she has no worries about them.

She can’t do AS maths (tgey only offer further maths at AS). She’ll also do an EPQ so an AS would be a lot of work.

In the school my partner teaches at they wouldn't recommended the maths A level if you were not in the top maths set in year 11, or at least top of set 2. If she's in set 3 she may struggle.

Maths A level is a big jump from GCSE and its a subject you really have to enjoy to succeed at. Its an easy one to feel overwhelmed at.

I took chemistry and biology at A level and although my maths is okay (an A in the old style GCSE) I wasn't gifted enough to take it further, it really does get hard. However I found my knowledge was good enough for chemistry and biology. Might be worth your daughter taking her sciences and picking a strong third option, her predicted grades will look a lot better than having maths potentially pull her down.

My nephew did a Biology degree at Uni of Bath with Biology and Chemistry but not maths. He had no problems. My daughter did Psychology but not A level maths and had no problem. In fact her degree is Psychology and doesn’t need A level maths. I’d be wary of Drama. The group work is often a problem and seems not as easy to get top grades. Psychology is relatively easy to get a top grade.

The maths needed for A level chemistry isn't particularly difficult. The maths needed for some degree level chemistry options may be.

As to how maths affects various bio degree options - read the websites for the courses she's interested in to see what seems realistic. It only took a moment to find this re Oxford biochemistry

The course has significant maths and biology content, and some physics. The first-year course provides the necessary background in biology, physics and mathematics for those who have not studied these subjects beyond GCSE. However Maths to A-level or the equivalent is very helpful to students in completing the course and, although not required for admission, will make an application more competitive.

https://www.bioch.ox.ac.uk/undergraduate-admissions

I also meant to say, STEM degrees which don't have maths as a requirement should offer at least two different maths subsid options to suit those with no or weak A level maths v those with good A level maths. Thats another thing which can be checked on the website or if not mentioned by emailing admissions.

@ErrolTheDragon thank you - yes of course she / I have read all the admissions statements including the bit you copied above. The Oxford Biology website makes no reference to maths really just stressing an interest in Biology as the prerequisite. I know a number of people studying Biochemistry at top unis (not Oxford) who don’t have A level maths so it was more how it would impact on A level chemistry.

should offer at least two different maths subsid options to suit those with no or weak A level maths v those with good A level maths - sorry probably being dim - not sure what you mean by this?

Ignore me have figured it out! You were referring to the courses not the applicants

My dd is now doing Medical science (equivalent to Biomedical science) at a Russell group university and she only did Maths at AS level. She got an 8 at GCSE but didn't really take to it at A level so stopped after one year.
She did A levels in Biology, Chemistry and Psychology.