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Secondary education

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Original poster

Can I get your opinion on collective punishment

51 replies

ChangeyNameyforthis · 14/10/2020 12:32

DS, year 8 came home from school upset as his whole class have been given 5 detentions, over 5 days. An incident happened at school with a couple of students and because no one was forthcoming with the info, the whole class is being punished. DS had nothing to do with it, nor did any of the others aside from a couple. The girls have the detention too.

I am not happy about this. If that was your DC would you say something?

OP posts:
Ihatemyseleffordoingthis · 14/10/2020 18:03

It's not barbaric but I would say it was shit and incompetent discipline
I actually would - especially in coronatimes - complain
Also I agree that it is not the role of students to police other students unless another person was being bullied or harmed or stuff being wrecked
Usually I'm more of the suck-it-up-buttercup school of thought if there is any shred of culpability!

newnameforthis123 · 14/10/2020 19:42

The issue is that generally in our school, the ones who did the punishable thing got away with it because they were scary and so punishing the whole class made no difference as they knew everyone would rather take a detention than get on the wrong side of them. That reinforced their sense of power and round and round it went. I don't know what the answer is but in our school collective punishment only served to reinforce who was scary and who was scared...

Namechangeforthis88 · 14/10/2020 20:00

It was unacceptable when I worked in prisons, just to give an idea where the bar is set.

Yellownotblue · 14/10/2020 20:24

Collective punishment is barbaric It is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Convention and is a violation of human rights. No one should be punished for something they haven’t done.

caringcarer · 14/10/2020 20:28

I would let teacher deal with behaviour. The incident must have been bad if they gave detention every day for a week. Your FC could have spoken to teacher in confidence and told what had happened but chose not to.

user128472578267 · 14/10/2020 20:34

It is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Convention and is a violation of human rights.

Interesting point and I do agree, although I probably wouldn't open with that when speaking to the school.

pastandpresent · 14/10/2020 20:37

If it was my dc, I would be very disappointed in my dc for walking away when something was definitely happening. So, whether I agree with this punishment or not, I would let teacher deal with it.

Slightlybrwnbanana · 14/10/2020 22:25

No teacher would think this a good idea. It sounds like A Very Bad Thing happened, the teacher hoped for a confession, didn't get one, and now can't back down. The teacher may well be less experienced. They are also probably under immense stress at the moment. Children's behaviour needs to be better than normal to maintain safety in schools, not worse.
So while I would think it was a crap idea I would weigh up what would be achieved by wading in talking about the Geneva convention. If this is a one-off I would not bring it up, and would hope the whole class would get a sense not to mess about and to behave for this teacher.
If it was happening repeatedly I would want to speak to the school (bearing in mind you can sometimes find out your dc was less above reproach than you thought)

Guymere · 14/10/2020 23:58

If schools expect young people to abide by their Behaviour Policy they must apply it consistently and fairly. There is no appeal process for detentions and this is not an acceptable form of punishment snd is contrary to the policy. This policy goes for teachers as well as pupils. So you should complain. Schools tend to have the odd skirmishes between dc and having rigid rules enforced with Covid isn’t going to help with behaviour. I’ve no doubt dc are fed up and just a talking to would surely have sufficed? It’s old fashioned, against their policy and not acceptable. I wonder if the teacher has read the policy?

unmarkedbythat · 15/10/2020 00:10

I thought it was petty, ineffective ridiculousness when I was at school. More than 20 years on I still do.

PanamaPattie · 15/10/2020 00:17

Do you need to give permission or sign a slip for detention? Just refuse. I would definitely be "that" parent.

PineappleUpsideDownCake · 15/10/2020 03:56

Let us know how you get on...

Rosebel · 15/10/2020 04:57

I disagree with collective punishment but would probably let it go if it was one day. Every day for a week is extreme and I'd complain.

OnTheBenchOfDoom · 15/10/2020 07:25

@ChangeyNameyforthis

It was not bullying, which I wouldn't condone at all and it was not damaging property. It was basically a few boys messing around and bags being thrown around.
But you are implying that bullying will ensue from reporting the behaviour.

Love your it was not damaging property and a few boys messing around. You only have your son's account of what happened. Maybe you should contact school ask them what happened which resulted in the detentions.

larrygrylls · 15/10/2020 07:32

Do remember it is detention, not a whipping. I doubt the Geneva convention would regard an extra hour of school as punishment at all.

Having said that, 5 detentions does sound a lot, although it does depend whether this is 5x 15 minutes at lunch or 5 hours after school.

I suspect the teacher hopes that someone will tell before it actually happens.

I would politely query it with your child’s form teacher or head of year.

TheoneandObi · 15/10/2020 07:35

I think it a tough that so many posters are condemning a 12 or 13 year old fir walking away. No one knows the dynamics unless theyre in that class. It can be v tough indeed for kids who feel they may be bullied themselves to step in. It comes close to victim blaming to blame those who deliberately don't get involved for better or worse (and lets face it whatever happened I'm sure there was scope to pile in and get involved in a bad way too). I speak as someone whose child was bullied and felt 'on the edge' of things for her early years at secondary school. There's absolutely no way she'd have risked involvement and to have blamed her for that inaction would be awful. DS on the other hand was safe and secure in the pecking order and may have intervened. Every situation is different

MsAwesomeDragon · 15/10/2020 07:39

It would seem that the reason the whole class are being punished is because they don't know who was involved and who wasn't. So if your ds wants to not have detentions then he needs to get together with some of the others who weren't involved and tell the teachers what happened.

I've done this (not 5 detentions but 1) and someone usually lets us know what happened before the detention happens. If they do then only the actual children involved receive any detentions at all.

FreeAcorns · 15/10/2020 07:40

I'm a teacher and we are not allowed to give whole class sanctions at my school. Also I've never heard of repeated detentions/sanctions for the same incident. We sanction once and escalate if necessary (e.g. they don't turn up to the lunchtime detention so get a department detention and so on). It does seem extreme.

pastandpresent · 15/10/2020 08:08

It does seem extreme indeed. So I would assume there's more to it than just boys messing around and bags being thrown.

Bloomburger · 15/10/2020 08:55

It's wrong but it may be that this has been low level stuff and they are trying to quash it once and for all.

In terms of not telling where does you DC draw the line, would he have told if a child was being bullied?

Original poster
ChangeyNameyforthis · 15/10/2020 09:52

So, 2 boys were messing around throwing stuff and one was injured slightly. His Dad kicked up a massive fuss and the rest of the class have been punished as a result as no one was forthcoming with info. The 2 boys who caused it have no further punishment, with one being the victim.

DC saw a bit, but not all of it and left the room. He was actually told the other day by a teacher to "just ignore them" when he said he wasn't happy with their disruptions and that's what he was doing. He was just ignoring them as instructed.

OP posts:
pastandpresent · 15/10/2020 10:03

But it doesn't make sense, if one was injured and his dad complained, they would know who the 2 people were. So the dad who complained about son being injured doesn't know who did it? Or the injured boy is too scared to say who hurt him? Then it's not but messing about, it's bullying, surely?

unmarkedbythat · 15/10/2020 13:31

Do remember it is detention, not a whipping. I doubt the Geneva convention would regard an extra hour of school as punishment at all.

What the actual fuck has the Gevena convention got to do with school discipline?

larrygrylls · 15/10/2020 13:46

Unmarked,

Read the thread!

Guymere · 15/10/2020 16:24

There are a number of people missing the point here. Schools have Behaviour policies. These are effectively agreements that everyone signs up to. Teachers, SLT, pupils and parents. Teachers cannot do what they want without regard to the agreed policy. Certainly DC can be questioned about an incident if there is good reason to think they know something. It’s unlikely a whole class would. So the teachers/SLT have to put some effort into being fair and investigate. Just dishing out a very long set of detentions and expecting DC to “tell” isn’t in the Behaviour Policy. There will be DCs who don’t want to be part of a skirmish and walk away. That’s fair enough. Surely the important thing is for a proper investigation to take place and if witnesses won’t come forward, so be it. Just a stern telling off will have to suffice. Teachers cannot do what they want when it comes down to punishment - the policy must be followed in the interests of everyone.

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