EPQ - worth it or not really?

[GU24Mum]

Dear All

My eldest has just started sixth form - doing 3 As and an EPQ. She is a panicker though bright (got 7s-9s at GCSE) and tends to think work is overwhelming before breathing and having a go......

She'd chosen an EPQ topic over the summer and done some reading but apparently is not academic enough so we're faced with coming up with something else. I sense a reluctance and lack of keenness and there isn't anything which she can think she wants to write about. So, is it worth keeping going or ditching it? She's already doing two real essay subjects and one which is mostly essays too. I might feel differently if she were doing science/maths and therefore the EPQ was very different.

So, is it really worth it? Any experience welcome, thanks!

Well it doesn't have to be writing an essay - there are lots of different ways you can present an EPQ and an almost infinite choiceof subjects. My DD's project was related to dance and part of her presentation was a dance that she choreographed and performed. My DS has invented and built something for his, so a lot of his presentation will be engineering drawings, photographs and data. I know quite a few young people who have created something physical for their EPQ and got high grades - it is an extended project remember, not just an essay .
What have your DD's school suggested? It is a bit poor if they have just rejected her idea without giving her any guidance. Surely there must be away she can modify or expand her original idea to make it more suitable? If she is feeling a bit overwhelmed by essays, can she think of a different way of presenting her project to make it more interesting? If you google for "EPQ ideas" there are loads of examples of topics and different ways that they have been presented so hopefully she can find something which grabs her imagination. Does she have any hobbies outside of school that she could base a project on? My youngest is only in Year 10 but he already has ideas about doing an EPQ related to either the physics/engineering or physiology side of his sport. Does she have any idea what she wants to study at University? If so, maybe picking something related to that would interest her, and that has the added advantage of allowing her a bit of insight into what studying that subject might be like.
What will she do if she drops it? At my children's school it is compulsory except for those doing 4 A levels so not doing an EPQ isn't really an option for the majority. It is probably worth considering what she wpuld have to do instead as that may be even less appealing than an EPQ currently seems.
I do think it is a worthwhile thing to do, not necessarily in terms of University admission, though I believe it can be helpful, but in terms of actual education and preparing for more independent learning in higher education. My DH used to work at a University and he says that the project our DS has done would have been looked at favourably there, maybe not as a final year project but certainly as an end of first or second year project. And DS has learned a lot of other stuff from it. His initial design wasn't completely successful so he has had to go back to the drawing board time and time again to modify some ideas and completely reject others. That's what happens in real engineering of course and it has been a very good lesson for him as he started off thinking he had all the answers and soon learned that he didn't. So whether it helps him get a University place or not, I think it has benefited him as a person and the problem solving skills he has learned will definitely help him in the future. We've viewed it as something that's of value in its own right rather than just an academic qualification if that makes sense?
I hope your DD finds an answer. It can seem quite daunting at first as its such a blank canvas and quite different to the very structured way most of the rest of school life runs. That's why I think its important actually.

@GU24Mum my dd is the same - high achieving but tends to get overwhelmed. Her grammar school don't insist on an EPQ (although they do insist on 'enrichment' of some kind) so she's not doing one. She's also doing two essay subjects and one which is half and half.

People say a high grade in EPQ can reduce your uni offer - but that still means juggling the EPQ with other subjects too. I suspect my dd will do best in her A Levels without an EPQ to worry about.

Yes, I can see that it's a good experience of independent research, but it may be that your/my dd never need to do much independent research in future anyway, who knows! My dd is thinking of a vocational degree. Also, dd has coursework with one of her A Levels (History) so that will give her some experience of research.

People say a high grade in EPQ can reduce your uni offer -

what do you mean by that ? is it not increase your uni offer ? thank you

what do you mean by that ? is it not increase your uni offer ?
Getting an A in EPQ means some, not all, universities will accept a drop in one grade, so AAA unis will accept AAB if EPQ is A.

Thanks @MrsAvocet for the detailed reply. I'm trying NOT to have it as my project as I'm sure that's not the idea but am not sure how much inspiration DD has.

@crazycrofter : Yes, they sound somewhat similar!!!

People say a high grade in EPQ can reduce your uni offer - but that still means juggling the EPQ with other subjects too. I suspect my dd will do best in her A Levels without an EPQ to worry about.

This. My dd was going to do one and I am so glad she didn't. It would really have impacted her A level grades, and for various reasons her A levels were a struggle. One grade lower on her best uni offer would have made no difference. Plus getting an A is not easy. Friend if DD's who is bright (ABB at A level) got a D in her EPQ.

I'm glad Ds2 (now in yr 13) isn't doing one. Tho I do take MrsAvocet's point about independent learning and rethinking ideas, interesting.

An EPQ is good for learning independent research, writing and presentation skills. Reading done for the EPQ can prove very useful in putting together a convincing personal statement.

For university entrance purposes the benefit is marginal and it can be a lot of work. My son's school made them all finish and submit the EPQ in the first year of sixth form so that it wouldn't interfere with A levels, which seemed to work well

I think you are absolutely right about it not being your project GU24Mum. It needs to be something the student is interested in and has ownership of or it is completely pointless. Plus of course they do have to answer questions at the presentation and I would imagine it is very obvious if it isn't really their work. One of my ex colleagues was very upset when his child didn't get a good mark, after all the hard work that he had put into the project. I imagine the child fell apart when they had to go "off script".
But I do think it is fine to offer guidance. It is very different to anything most students of this age have done before and being offered the choice of "anything" sounds appealing at first but is actually very difficult. I think it is reasonable to steer them towards things that we can see are their strengths and interests if they feel overwhelmed themselves. We have also offered practical help, but in a "real world" sort of way. For example, DH has machined some of the parts for DS's thing but he has made what he has been asked to make, even when he has been able to see that the design was flawed. Or DS has got up few times in the morning to find a note on his desk saying "There were no dimensions on X and Y on your drawing so I was unable to complete this piece" - just like would happen in the real world. And when he has got stuck with something we have encouraged him to think who he might be able to approach for advice, again, as happens in reality. None of his helpers have done the work for him but have shared advice and knowledge to allow him to complete it.
I can see the point that it takes time away from the core A levels, but with a careful choice of project it can enhance A level study. Some students will benefit from doing something totally different and others will do something relevant to their A levels that boosts their learning.
My DS is doing Maths, Physics and Computer Science A levels and wants to study Mechatronics at University. His project has included mechanics, electronics, coding as well as masses of calculations and some astronomy. All that stuff has made him, unconsciously, revise work from his A levels, or in some cases get ahead of the game. Plus he can now see the point of a lot of the theory he is learning and is more motivated to study some of the things he previously thought were boring or irrelevant.
I hope he gets a high grade as I think he deserves it, but if not, so what, he has learned a huge amount of technical and non technical skills from doing it and that will never be wasted. His understanding of his core A level subjects has definitely been enhanced.
An EPQ probably can be a pointless distraction but it certainly doesn't have to be.

An EPQ can also be helpful if a student wants to do a 'non school' subject at university. DD is doing one that is very strongly related to her area of chosen study, and it's been really useful in terms of being able to flesh out her personal statement, showing in depth knowledge of specific parts of what she is applying for.

Her job is to protect her ability to get the best grades possible in her subjects.

What is she aiming for?

Looking at it another way, the EPQ was good preparation for Dds coursework research for her A Levels. It also meant that her grades to get into university were lower so less pressure at exam time.

I would say in a typical year an EPQ is blurry achievable and promotes useful skills, especially if it's relevant to future plans/course at uni.

However this year I have big reservations about it and actually my school has decided against it as we are focusing all our energy on A level courses. This has never happened before but we have already lost time due to lockdown.

*very not blurry!!

DD did the EPQ. Ended up whacking it out in two nights and got a B for it. She got 3A* A'Levels. Had a gap year and applied to Cambridge. It was on her original UCAS application. Never ever mentioned it again and she thinks it was a complete and utter waste of time.

Getting an A in EPQ means some, not all, universities will accept a drop in one grade, so AAA unis will accept AAB if EPQ is A.
Yes this. DS got A*BB plus A for his EPQ. His EPQ allowed him to upgrade in adjustment over and above other students who had the same grades for the A levels

DS's school is keen but DS is not. He has managed to find a few decent universities that say they will not take an EPQ into account as not all students have the opportunity. I have challenged him to come up with 5 that are well rated for the course he thinks he may like to do. He's not allowed to count Oxford & Cambridge as he wouldn't be applying to them anyway.

I would like my DD to do an EPQ as long as she is supported well by the school, and it seems she will be. They don't start looking at it until May of Yr12. They get some timetabled time learning how to go about it. Workshops etc. They then have the opportunity to pick a member of staff to become their mentor. They pick their topic before the end of summer term and start to work on it during summer hols. Then in Oct YR13, it becomes more serious and final hand in is Dec. So nicely spread out, and lots of support.
I was really keen for her to do it - but found out that Core Maths (AS Maths) is over 2 years, so not sure she will have enough time. I think it will depend if she finds something really useful to do an EPQ on (ie is there something missing in her porfolio) I suspect there will be as she wants to study Biology at uni but may not be able to show a passion for this any other way.

It all depends. Like others have said an A in an EPQ could mean the difference in one offer grade. However, most (exception of the golden five) universities usually give a lower offer on what was advertised anyway, either shortly after their initial offer or on results day (EPQ or not). So the question is, is the value of an EPQ really in the possibility of a lower offer or simply for the research skills gained? this will have to be decided by the student.

No. I am not sure Universities are bothered. It’s become commoditised, like the DoE. If it was much vaunted, I’d have made my son take it.

DD2's EPQ was actually really useful - she used an early draft as a piece of marked work in her Oxbridge application, and was taken through it line by line in interview, having to justify what she'd written. And it was very satisfying to be able to tell her supervisor (who objected to the "report" format, and wanted an extended essay instead), that it was in the exact format that would be expected from her at uni.

All three DC did an EPQ, none of them had it used in their offer, but for DD1 (maths, maths and more maths) it was good for writing and presentation skills, and gave DD3 a legit opportunity to devote rather a lot of school time to her passion ("yes, miss, reading this book/listening to this podcast is EPQ research ).

However, had DD3 been in 6th form atm, I'd be heavily suggesting not to bother, as schooling has been so disrupted, it would seem sensible to concentrate on what's going to get the exam grades needed for the next step, and plan to fit in some "rounding" at a later date.

York and Newcastle were the only ones Dd applied to as they did the course she wanted. Both of them dropped a grade offer for her A in EPQ.
If they can bank the grade before applying to uni it’s a good way of showing independent learning. In these uncertain times I think it’s useful evidence to show your ability and easy way of getting a grade drop.
Dd had infected wisdom teeth during her exams and dosed up on painkillers, antibiotics and also had her hand strapped up! She still got good grades but there is a certain amount of luck that goes with exams too.

Two of my children have done it. It was a positive and helpful experience which certainly didn't hurt their uni applications